Oznium.com Store
Oznium Forum
The value of this forum is in the interaction with your fellow LED lighting enthusiasts.
Register today! - It is FREE and quick

Failure Extremely bright pre-wired superflux 4-chip 12V LED

Author
Message
CrankieFrankie

Joined: Jun 04 2010
Posts: 9
Location: Yorktown, NY


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:07 pm

Is anyone else having problems with short life of these units? I have reduced the voltage to a little over 10 volts with series diodes. In the past week I have lost 10 more. The company has been very generous in the replacement of these failed units but I hate to keep asking for replacements. I want to get to the bottom of the problem before I ask again. I have installed 26 of these in the lower grill work. 13 per side. Any help out there/ Is anyone else having the same problem? icon_cry.gif
Cooper

Joined: Mar 19 2006
Posts: 1770


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:46 pm

What color are they, Frank ?
CrankieFrankie

Joined: Jun 04 2010
Posts: 9
Location: Yorktown, NY


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:51 pm

White
Phil
Owner, Oznium.com

Joined: Feb 11 2003
Posts: 7721


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:35 pm

Yes, its a known issue with white for some reason, but still haven't been able to figure out why / a fix.
CrankieFrankie

Joined: Jun 04 2010
Posts: 9
Location: Yorktown, NY


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Fri Jun 04, 2010 5:18 pm

Thanks Phil. You guys have been super. I will be in touch with you next week for some replacements. Is it possible that the heat shrinking might cause damage to the led's? They don't seem to get hot only the resistor and that is not even close to the led.
EricCartman

Joined: Oct 24 2008
Posts: 175
Location: Oregon


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Fri Jun 04, 2010 6:21 pm

Phil wrote:
Yes, its a known issue with white for some reason, but still haven't been able to figure out why / a fix.


I would venture a bet on susceptibility to ESD...
CrankieFrankie

Joined: Jun 04 2010
Posts: 9
Location: Yorktown, NY


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Sat Jun 05, 2010 8:21 am

Eric, If that was the case why aren't all the leds going out? I thought it might be a surge when the car first starts. Any suggestions would help.
EricCartman

Joined: Oct 24 2008
Posts: 175
Location: Oregon


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:07 pm

As I said before... I'm not sure that it is ESD that is causing the failures. But you can implement measures to essentially eliminate the risk of ESD damage while working with the LEDS.

ESD is electrostatic discharge. Your body is capable of creaking several kilo volts of potential difference. That potential can damage sensitive electronics. Remember shuffling your feet on the carpet so you could shock someone? That is ESD. The same thing happens (to a lesser extent) just wearing clothes. It's usually not enough to feel a shock if you touch something, but it could be enough to damage electronic equipment.

You can wear a grounding strap (attached to a ground on the car) when you are handling the LEDS. That the charge does not get a chance to build up and dumps into the chassis instead of being applied across the terminals of the LED.

Something like this: User posted image

I once worked for a company that made bar code scanners for super markets. They were reporting a high failure rate. Guess what was killing them? ESD... it turns out dragging things in large plastic bags (like diapers) across the scanner generated enough ESD to kill the unit. ESD protection was added to the circuit to help reduce the problem.

Good luck!
Cartman
kornholio788

Joined: May 02 2005
Posts: 9748
Location: Tosa, WI


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Sat Jun 05, 2010 6:22 pm

Phil wrote:
Yes, its a known issue with white for some reason, but still haven't been able to figure out why / a fix.


Then why are you still selling them? You are better than this phil!
stevenb913

Joined: Mar 22 2010
Posts: 36


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Sat Jun 05, 2010 9:37 pm

I agree. Im on my 3rd replacement for these damn things. Its a major hassle. I have green and they work great. But the white last a couple days...?
Phil
Owner, Oznium.com

Joined: Feb 11 2003
Posts: 7721


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:12 am

The factory is using ESD protection. Just heard from a customer that they were running them on 10.5 v and still had 22 burn out. It doesn't make sense... The resistor is big enough both in wattage and ohms to handle it.

Been trying a lot of things with the factory, already had 2 new samples of changes made and still having the issue.

I guess we're going to try LEDs from a different LED factory and see if that has some effect.

If you have any ideas please tell.
EricCartman

Joined: Oct 24 2008
Posts: 175
Location: Oregon


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:35 am

Has any failure analysis been done on the failing units? This can help narrow the cause of failure (package or silicon related).

I would assume these LEDs are manufactured using some sort of epoxy? It is possible that the epoxy may be reaching it glass transition temperature. That results in expansion that could cause damage to the silicon/bonding pads of the LED.

Have you done any electrical type testing on failed units? Do the failed units appears as opens or shorts? Can you apply any kind of forward bias to them?

Maybe the LEDs don't like the sudden inrush of current... maybe you could add a small cap between the anode and cathode to reduce the rise time of the input and limit any voltage spikes.

Are all of the LEDs made in the same factory? Is there any difference between their assembly process for the various colors? If not... that might point more towards the silicon that the device is built upon.

That's really all I can think of at the moment...

Cartman
CrankieFrankie

Joined: Jun 04 2010
Posts: 9
Location: Yorktown, NY


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:31 am

Phil, looks like you have a bad batch of the white ones. Let me know when you get them from a different factory. I know you have sent me 12 replacements and I will hook them up to a regulated supply and burn them in, no pun intended! I will report back to you if they fail running on regulated supply as opposed to a motor vehicle. I have saved the failed ones so if you need to test them, I can send them back to you. Again, they really look good, and I can't really use any other color in the DRL's.
CrankieFrankie

Joined: Jun 04 2010
Posts: 9
Location: Yorktown, NY


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:36 pm

Got 12 replacement Extremely bright pre-wired superflux 4-chip 12V LED today. Wired them up and will test them on a regulated supply. Voltage 13.55 volts and 12 are drawing about 575ma. Took photo with them all on and included is a clock with the time and date. I will see how long they last hooked up this way. If they don't fail then it is a problem with the voltage in the vehicle. That voltage tops out at 14.1 volts. These are DIRECTLY connected with NO dropping diodes. Stay tuned. Phil, if you do get any from a different manufacture, please send me 10 as a sample to test. The power supply can handle 50 amps. icon_lol.gif
CrankieFrankie

Joined: Jun 04 2010
Posts: 9
Location: Yorktown, NY


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Fri Jun 11, 2010 5:50 am

I'm going to add a 7812 voltage regulator and eliminate the series diodes. I have 7 working leds now and I am going to see if this keeps the ones that are working, working.
minkya louie

Joined: Jun 07 2010
Posts: 1


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Tue Jun 15, 2010 8:07 am

So running them in your lab environment (regulated 13.5 V) 5 of the 12 have burned out?
highaltitude
Oznium Employee

Joined: Dec 07 2009
Posts: 18
Location: Pagosa Springs, Colorado Oznium warehouse


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Fri Jun 18, 2010 11:27 pm

The hardest part is repeating the problem. I ran several at the warehouse at 30 volts and they did not fail a week later and neither did the resistor. Resistor was hot enough to melt plastic table but no failure. There are many reasons leds fail and white is the most prone color. It is most likely some sort of led die defect but ????
CrankieFrankie

Joined: Jun 04 2010
Posts: 9
Location: Yorktown, NY


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Sat Jun 19, 2010 10:34 am

highaltitude, The problem has been lessened by adding a 12 volt regulator ( 7812 ). The led's are lasting longer. Will order replacements at the end of next week when I determine how many I need. I really do not want to uninstall them. They really look good. You will see them when Phil gets my pictures to post. I can't seem to do it.
AnthonyF

Joined: Jul 09 2010
Posts: 3
Location: ATL, GA


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Fri Jul 09, 2010 2:27 pm

CrankieFrankie wrote:
Is anyone else having problems with short life of these units? I have reduced the voltage to a little over 10 volts with series diodes. In the past week I have lost 10 more. The company has been very generous in the replacement of these failed units but I hate to keep asking for replacements. I want to get to the bottom of the problem before I ask again. I have installed 26 of these in the lower grill work. 13 per side. Any help out there/ Is anyone else having the same problem? icon_cry.gif


I am, some1 else is making these for R6 owners and mine are going out after about 3-5 months.

-Ant.
alienyoungjr

Joined: Apr 30 2004
Posts: 4654
Location: Texas


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:12 pm

I bet it is due to Thermal RunAway. LEDs are known for this and resistors can't do anything to control it. You can try srapping the resistor and replacing it with a current regulator. Thermal RunAway is where the heat gets too much for the LED to handle and the LED just starts sucking down current like a mad man of crack. The current regulator will prevent that, and you don't even have to worry about what voltage it gets because the LED will manage that on its own.
CrankieFrankie

Joined: Jun 04 2010
Posts: 9
Location: Yorktown, NY


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:22 pm

Would you need a current regulator for EACH led? That would cost more than the LED's. I am using a 12 volt voltage regulator and that seems to have helped.
alienyoungjr

Joined: Apr 30 2004
Posts: 4654
Location: Texas


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:37 pm

The current regulator can regulate the current for many LED's. You can get an LM317 to handle about 2watts which is around 1500ma. You just need a heat sink to prevent the regulator from overheating.
PwrRngr

Joined: Jul 19 2007
Posts: 4407


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:37 pm

"Thermal run away" is just diode breakdown and it happens to any diode at a certain voltage. If you want a current regulator, you'll need it for EACH group of series LEDs. If you run the LEDs in parallel (which you do for the prewired LEDs) then you'll need it on every LED.

It seems these LEDs aren't meeting the specs on the page. It would be VERY easy get a graph of current vs voltage to determine the correct voltage for these. Then one could also do the same thing for the old LEDs and see if the graphs look the same. If Phil wants to ship me 10 or so LEDs of each batch I would do this.
PwrRngr

Joined: Jul 19 2007
Posts: 4407


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Sun Aug 15, 2010 2:40 pm

alienyoungjr wrote:
The current regulator can regulate the current for many LED's. You can get an LM317 to handle about 2watts which is around 1500ma. You just need a heat sink to prevent the regulator from overheating.

Yes it can handle all the current, but it won't regulate current to individual LEDs. If a string of LEDs pulls 1500mA, they're burning out and the regulator isn't protecting anything.

Think about it, lets say you have 3 strings of LEDs and the ideal current of each is 20mA. You hook both strings up to the LM317 with a max output of 1500mA. Now lets say one of the LED strings starts to break down and starts pulling 40mA. That's a total pull of 60mA and WELL under the regulator. It will allow this to happen. To properly do this, you would need a regulator for every string w/ a max output of what you want (20mA in the example).
alienyoungjr

Joined: Apr 30 2004
Posts: 4654
Location: Texas


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Tue Aug 17, 2010 5:36 pm

Just program the regulator to the amperage that is needed. So only 60ma is needed for 3 LEDs then it will only allow 60ma to continue thru it. Yes, the LM317 can handle up to 1500ma, but you program it to the current that you want. Current regulators are used quite widely. Even more so than voltage regulators especially when it comes to LED usage.

Anyways, current regulators and voltage regulators are better than just a resistor. Current regulator has my vote as the best. ICELED uses current regulators.
PwrRngr

Joined: Jul 19 2007
Posts: 4407


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:56 pm

alienyoungjr wrote:
Just program the regulator to the amperage that is needed. So only 60ma is needed for 3 LEDs then it will only allow 60ma to continue thru it. Yes, the LM317 can handle up to 1500ma, but you program it to the current that you want. Current regulators are used quite widely. Even more so than voltage regulators especially when it comes to LED usage.

Anyways, current regulators and voltage regulators are better than just a resistor. Current regulator has my vote as the best. ICELED uses current regulators.

Yes, but you'll still need one programed to each specific "leg" of LED(s). If you program it for 4 legs at 20mA each, it can still allow excess current into one leg.
Aken

Joined: Feb 12 2003
Posts: 10885


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:57 pm

All superflux LEDs I've ever used have worked great since day one. :-/
alienyoungjr

Joined: Apr 30 2004
Posts: 4654
Location: Texas


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Tue Aug 24, 2010 5:09 pm

I have more LEDs failing on resistors than I do on current regulators. Regulators for the WIN!
gtgarner

Joined: Sep 01 2010
Posts: 2


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:26 am

I have 30 white superflux on the front of my car. They are blowing out on a weekly basis. Interesting thing is that if I take some pliers and gently squeeze on the outside - they come back on. Then if I remove power and re-power them they are out again until I squeeze them on the sides again. I've just been replacing them. This is starting to get expensive. Are these lights really weatherproof or not?

I wonder if they can handle Chicago weather on the outside of a car.
bad venge

Joined: Jul 28 2007
Posts: 3550


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:11 am

this sounds like the leg connections heating up and failing / bad solder joints in the case ?
gtgarner

Joined: Sep 01 2010
Posts: 2


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:48 am

Might be, In any case, its getting very expensive to keep my car looking cool with these "HOT" lights. icon_wink.gif
The time now is Tue May 22, 2018 6:10 pm
Page 1 of 1