Oznium.com Store
Oznium Forum
The value of this forum is in the interaction with your fellow LED lighting enthusiasts.
Register today! - It is FREE and quick

Stanley "Tookie" Williams Debate

Author
Message
02BlueStang

Joined: Dec 13 2004
Posts: 4757


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Mon Dec 12, 2005 10:03 pm

Stanley "Tookie" Williams will be executed at midnight tonight (roughly 3 hrs from now), for those who dont know he is the renowned founder of the "Crips" gang and is on death row for murdering 4 people in 1979 during two hold ups....

Im curious to see what the opinions of the board are towards his execution. Should he be executed for his crimes? Or has he found redemption on death row and escape his original punishment of death?
TheBrick

Joined: Oct 07 2003
Posts: 4140
Location: Niagara Falls, Canada


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Mon Dec 12, 2005 10:06 pm

Give him what he was sentenced to.

He knew the concequences when he commited his crime. He must now pay the price.
pontiac4evr_14

Joined: Apr 04 2003
Posts: 2512
Location: Manson, IA


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Mon Dec 12, 2005 10:22 pm

Did the crime do the time. His time is up. If i killed your loved ones would you want me to get off for writting anti-gang children books and "finding god"
02BlueStang

Joined: Dec 13 2004
Posts: 4757


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Mon Dec 12, 2005 10:24 pm

FYI I support him getting the needle, just wanted to see what some opinions on the board were as well as reasons for those opinions, friendly debate as im interested in hearing the other side of line's opinions
pontiac4evr_14

Joined: Apr 04 2003
Posts: 2512
Location: Manson, IA


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Mon Dec 12, 2005 10:30 pm

ok i wasnt sure your opinion so good to hear it. One thing i hate is jessie jackson supporting him. I think Jessie Jackson is the Biggest raciest in America. He hates whites.
justinwebb

Joined: Sep 15 2004
Posts: 3170
Location: Columbus, OH


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:02 pm

they say in his court apperance when he was on trial for the murders he talked about how he killed the people then he laughed and made sounds about the killing for 5-6 mins............kill him one less **** up person in the world....plus gangs are retarded anyways its for people who have no lives and no future
mccook8

Joined: Jun 01 2004
Posts: 744


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:25 pm

I say it's long PAST time for Tookie to pay the ferryman.

In February of 1979 (!!!!) he murdered a 26-year-old store clerk during a robbery, shooting him in the back with a shotgun. He later laughed and joked about the NOISES the man made while dying.

Do the math: Tookie's been alive AFTER the murder longer than his first victim lived AT ALL.

Here is the complete statement by Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger denying clemency for Stanley Tookie Williams:

Quote:

Stanley Williams has been convicted of brutally murdering four people during two separate armed robberies in February and March 1979. A California jury sentenced him to death, and he is scheduled for execution on December 13, 2005.

During the early morning hours of February 28, 1979, Williams and three others went on a robbery spree. Around 4 a.m., they entered a 7-Eleven store where Albert Owens was working by himself. Here, Williams, armed with his pump-action shotgun, ordered Owens to a back room and shot him twice in the back while he lay face down on the floor. Williams and his accomplices made off with about $120 from the store's cash register. After leaving the 7-Eleven store, Williams told the others that he killed Albert Owens because he did not want any witnesses. Later that morning, Williams recounted shooting Albert Owens, saying "You should have heard the way he sounded when I shot him." Williams then made a growling noise and laughed for five to six minutes.
On March 11, 1979, less than two weeks later, Williams, again armed with his shotgun, robbed a family operated motel and shot and killed three members of the family: the father, Yen-I Yang, who was shot once in the torso and once in the arm while he was laying on a sofa; the mother, Tsai-Shai Lin, who was shot once in the abdomen and once in the back; and the daughter, Yee-Chen Lin, who was shot once in her face. For these murders, Williams made away with approximately $100 in cash. Williams also told others about the details of these murders and referred to the victims as "Buddha-heads."

Now, his appeals exhausted, Williams seeks mercy in the form of a petition for clemency. He claims that he deserves clemency because he has undergone a personal transformation and is redeemed, and because there were problems with his trial that undermine the fairness of the jury's verdict.

Williams' case has been thoroughly reviewed in the 24 years since his convictions and death sentence. In addition to his direct appeal to the California Supreme Court, Williams has filed five state habeas corpus petitions, each of which has been rejected. The federal courts have also reviewed his convictions and death sentence. Williams filed a federal habeas corpus petition, and the U.S. District Court denied it. The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals confirmed this decision. Williams was also given a number of post-trial evidentiary hearings, and he and his lawyers had the opportunity at these hearings to present evidence that was not heard at trial. The jury's decision has withstood these challenges.

In all, Williams' case has been the subject of at least eight substantive judicial opinions. Prior to the filing of the clemency petition, the state court habeas process was completed on June 21, 1995, when the California Supreme Court denied Williams' fourth state habeas corpus petition. The federal court habeas process was completed on October 11, 2005, when the United States Supreme Court denied Williams' writ of certiorari.

The claim that Williams received an unfair trial was the subject of this extensive litigation in the state and federal courts. The courts considered the sufficiency of his counsel, the strategic nature of counsel's decisions during the penalty phase of Williams' trial, the adequacy and reliability of testimony from informants, whether Williams was prejudiced by security measures employed during his trial, whether he was competent to stand trial, whether the prosecutor impermissibly challenged potential jurors on the basis of race, and [color=blue]whether his jury was improperly influenced by Williams' threats made against them. There is no need to rehash or second guess the myriad findings of the courts over 24 years of litigation.[/color]

The possible irregularities in Williams' trial have been thoroughly and carefully reviewed by the courts, and there is no reason to disturb the judicial decisions that uphold the jury's decisions that he is guilty of these four murders and should pay with his life.

The basis of Williams' clemency request is not innocence. Rather, the basis of the request is the "personal redemption Stanley Williams has experienced and the positive impact of the message he sends" (quoting Williams' own clemency reply). But Williams' claim of innocence remains a key factor to evaluating his claim of personal redemption. It is impossible to separate Williams' claim of innocence from his claim of redemption.

Cumulatively, the evidence demonstrating Williams is guilty of these murders is strong and compelling. It includes: (1) eyewitness testimony of Alfred Coward, who was one of Williams' accomplices in the 7-Eleven shooting; (2) ballistics evidence proving that the shotgun casing found at the scene of the motel murders was fired from Williams' shotgun; (3) testimony from Samuel Coleman that Williams confessed that he had robbed and killed some people on Vermont Street (where the motel was located); (4) testimony from James and Esther Garrett that Williams admitted to them that he committed both sets of murders; and (5) testimony from jailhouse informant George Oglesby that Williams confessed to the motel murders and conspired with Oglesby to escape from county jail.

The trial evidence is bolstered by information from Tony Sims, who has admitted to being an accomplice in the 7-Eleven murder. Sims did not testify against Williams at trial, but he was later convicted of murder for his role in Albert Owens' death. During his trial and subsequent parole hearings, Sims has repeatedly stated under oath that Williams was the shooter.

Based on the cumulative weight of the evidence, there is no reason to second guess the jury's decision of guilt or raise significant doubts or serious reservations about Williams' convictions and death sentence. He murdered Albert Owens and Yen-I Yang, Yee-Chen Lin and Tsai-Shai Lin in cold blood in two separate incidents that were just weeks apart.

But Williams claims that he is particularly deserving of clemency because he has reformed and been redeemed for his violent past. Williams' claim of redemption triggers an inquiry into his atonement for all his transgressions. Williams protests that he has no reason to apologize for these murders because he did not commit them. But he is guilty, and a close look at Williams' post-arrest and post-conviction conduct tells a story that is different from redemption.

After Williams was arrested for these crimes, and while he was awaiting trial, he conspired to escape from custody by blowing up a jail transportation bus and killing the deputies guarding the bus. There are detailed escape plans in Williams' own handwriting. Williams never executed this plan, but his co-conspirator implicated Williams in the scheme. The fact that Williams conspired to murder several others to effectuate his escape from jail while awaiting his murder trial is consistent with guilt, not innocence. And the timing of the motel murders - less than two weeks after the murder of Albert Owens - shows a callous disregard for human life.

Williams has written books that instruct readers to avoid the gang lifestyle and to stay out of prison. In 1996, a Tookie Speaks Out Against Gang Violence children's book series was published. In 1998, "Life in Prison" was published. In 2004, Williams published a memoir entitled "Blue Rage, Black Redemption." He has also recently (since 1995) tried to preach a message of gang avoidance and peacemaking, including a protocol for street peace to be used by opposing gangs.

It is hard to assess the effect of such efforts in concrete terms, but the continued pervasiveness of gang violence leads one to question the efficacy of Williams' message. Williams co-founded the Crips, a notorious street gang that has contributed and continues to contribute to predatory and exploitative violence.

The dedication of Williams' book "Life in Prison" casts significant doubt on his personal redemption. This book was published in 1998, several years after Williams' claimed redemptive experience. Specifically, the book is dedicated to "Nelson Mandela, Angela Davis, Malcolm X, Assata Shakur, Geronimo Ji Jaga Pratt, Ramona Africa, John Africa, Leonard Peltier, Dhoruba Al-Mujahid, George Jackson, Mumia Abu-Jamal and the countless other men, women and youths who have to endure the hellish oppression of living behind bars." The mix of individuals on this list is curious. Most have violent pasts and some have been convicted of committing heinous murders, including the killing of law enforcement. But the inclusion of George Jackson (a militant activist who founded the Black Guerilla Family prison gang and was charged with the murder of a San Quentin prison guard) on this list defies reason and is a significant indicator that Williams is not reformed and that he still sees violence and lawlessness as a legitimate means to address societal problems.

There is also little mention or atonement in his writings and his plea for clemency of the countless murders committed by the Crips following the lifestyle Williams once espoused. The senseless killing that has ruined many families, particularly in African-American communities, in the name of the Crips and gang warfare is a tragedy of our modern culture. One would expect more explicit and direct reference to this byproduct of his former lifestyle in Williams' writings and apology for this tragedy, but it exists only through innuendo and inference.

Is Williams' redemption complete and sincere, or is it just a hollow promise? Stanley Williams insists he is innocent, and that he will not and should not apologize or otherwise atone for the murders of the four victims in this case. Without an apology and atonement for these senseless and brutal killings there can be no redemption. In this case, the one thing that would be the clearest indication of complete remorse and full redemption is the one thing Williams will not do.

Clemency decisions are always difficult, and this one is no exception. After reviewing and weighing the showing Williams has made in support of his clemency request, there is nothing that compels me to nullify the jury's decision of guilt and sentence and the many court decisions during the last 24 years upholding the jury's decision with a grant of clemency.

Therefore, based on the totality of circumstances in this case, Williams' request for clemency is denied.
mccook8

Joined: Jun 01 2004
Posts: 744


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:42 pm

tick tock tick tock

just 18 more minutes, and it's ma-asalaama, motherf&*ker to another murdering sack of ****
Tim

Joined: Nov 16 2003
Posts: 10795
Location: Kalamazoo, MI


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:44 pm

I must be way out of the loop. Or it's before my time. They got this on TV?
Glowin97x

Joined: Mar 13 2004
Posts: 608
Location: Malibu, CA


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:52 pm

even the cryps hate the guy.
Recon

Joined: May 27 2004
Posts: 1615
Location: Reno, Nevada


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:52 pm

He gets what he deserves...
Tim

Joined: Nov 16 2003
Posts: 10795
Location: Kalamazoo, MI


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:53 pm

wtf are the cryps? I just heard that Snoop Dog was a Cryp. That some old ass gang back in the 70s?
mccook8

Joined: Jun 01 2004
Posts: 744


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:53 pm

oops. my mistake.

That's midnight PACIFIC time, and I'm in Central.

so, 2 hours from now.

he's not worth staying up for.

I'll read about it in the morning.

(and sleep well, knowing that all is right with the world tonight)
Tim

Joined: Nov 16 2003
Posts: 10795
Location: Kalamazoo, MI


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:55 pm

someone wanna give that to me on Michigan time? It's 1:54. Should I stay up for another 6 minutes? heh.

Kill the guy. He deserves it.
Recon

Joined: May 27 2004
Posts: 1615
Location: Reno, Nevada


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:55 pm

Tim wrote:
wtf are the cryps? I just heard that Snoop Dog was a Cryp. That some old ass gang back in the 70s?

That was his gang
Recon

Joined: May 27 2004
Posts: 1615
Location: Reno, Nevada


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:55 pm

and its PST, so like 54 minutes
Tim

Joined: Nov 16 2003
Posts: 10795
Location: Kalamazoo, MI


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:58 pm

Wonder what he's thinking about, knowing he only has 1 hour left to live.
Recon

Joined: May 27 2004
Posts: 1615
Location: Reno, Nevada


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:59 pm

Tim wrote:
Wonder what he's thinking about, knowing he only has 1 hour left to live.

I was just thinking about that, it would be kinda strange to know you only have an hour left to live..
jethawk

Joined: Jul 07 2004
Posts: 1242
Location: Windsor, Ontario, Canada


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Tue Dec 13, 2005 12:09 am

he's probably thinking... wow i only have 1 hour left....
Tim

Joined: Nov 16 2003
Posts: 10795
Location: Kalamazoo, MI


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Tue Dec 13, 2005 12:24 am

Now all I'm hearing is this cruise ship ****. What's wrong with America, gangs and people getting killed on cruise ships. Jeeze.
IceDog

Joined: Feb 13 2005
Posts: 321
Location: Montana


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Tue Dec 13, 2005 12:52 am

Quote:
tick tock tick tock

just 18 more minutes, and it's ma-asalaama, motherf&*ker to another murdering sack of ****

Are you saying, in 26 years its impossible for a man to change? He spent most of his time in solitary. Thats a lot of time to think about what you have done. A lot of time to think about how you f*cked up your life. A lot of time to think about when your time comes for the needles in your arms.
Everyday I ask myself what would happen if I turned my steering wheel a few degrees to the right, and ran over some pedestrians. What would my family say after they heard that I broke someones neck during a fight. (On Purpose) Sometimes I think that my subconscious will take over and I will act on what I had just imagined.
We all make mistakes. He deserves respect for living out the latter part of his life with anti-gang violence and helping children make right choices, avoiding the life that he has lived.
As of this time, aprx. 10 minutes away from his execution, I have nothing but respect for Tookie. I hope he has a very inspiring message, when his last words come, to carry on his dreams of a peaceful world.


Last edited by IceDog on Tue Dec 13, 2005 8:48 am, edited 1 time in total
Squeak

Joined: Mar 20 2005
Posts: 206


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Tue Dec 13, 2005 1:04 am

IceDog wrote:
Quote:
tick tock tick tock

just 18 more minutes, and it's ma-asalaama, motherf&*ker to another murdering sack of ****

Are you saying, in 26 years its impossible for a man to change? He spent most of his time in solitary. Thats a lot of time to think about what you have done. A lot of time to think about how you f*cked up your life. A lot of time to think about when your time comes for the needles in your arms.
Everyday I ask myself what would happen if I turned my steering wheel a few degrees to the right, and ran over some pedestrians. What would my family say after they heard that I broke someones neck during a fight. Sometimes I think that my subconscious will take over and I will act on what I had just imagined.
We all make mistakes. He deserves respect for living out the latter part of his life with anti-gang violence and helping children make right choices, avoiding the life that he has lived.
As of this time, aprx. 10 minutes away from his execution, I have nothing but respect for Tookie. I hope he has a very inspiring message, when his last words come, to carry on his dreams of a peaceful world.



Are you **** serious? This doesn't even come CLOSE to being called a mistake. The man brutally killed 4 people...ON PURPOSE. There wasn't some tragic shooting range accident. He knew what he was doing, which means you using the car accident and fighting doesn't even make sense. In a car accident, it's just that, an accident. In a fight, at least the other person had a chance. Faced against a shotgun, there isn't a very good chance of survival.

He changed? Good, but that sick **** needs to die. Like pontiac said earlier, think about if three members of your family were murdered for $100, and the guy sat in jail, safely counting away the days, living better than he did on the streets, and guess what? You're paying for it. Not only that, but now he wants out of jail, because he found God? Hmm...Why wouldn't he find God considering he is sentenced to die? I think that's a pretty damn good time to start loving Him. Ever heard of foxhole religion? He needs to die...end of story.
IceDog

Joined: Feb 13 2005
Posts: 321
Location: Montana


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Tue Dec 13, 2005 1:25 am

Not a car accident *******. Purposely driving into the pedestrians! Definition of a mistake is An error or fault resulting from defective judgment, deficient knowledge, or carelessness. Just because it was on purpose doesn't automatically dismiss it as a mistake. I'm not saying he should not die. I am saying he deserves respect for changing his ways based on his mistakes. Everyone has to pay for their mistakes. He has paid for killing 4 people with his execution, which is questionable whether he is innocent or not, he has paid for co-founding a gang with anti-gang movements and an apology to the youth who have suffered from gangs.


Last edited by IceDog on Tue Dec 13, 2005 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total
Rags

Joined: Apr 21 2005
Posts: 3527
Location: dayton


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Tue Dec 13, 2005 6:11 am

i see what icedog is saying.
and i know what he means.
how old is everyone on this forum?
the majority are under 26 or around it, imagine your lifetime being spent in solitary confinement. institutionalized, i mean i cant say that what he did was right because i dont govern what society dictates as right or wrong. my morals state it was wrong, but my morals also cant inject a man with about 100mL of potassium and watch him take 3 breaths and his eyes glaze over.
morally speaking, i think he probably had different morals before he pulled the trigger than what he had an hour before he was injected.
either way, i also dont think its moral for us to sit here and go on about how he should die, and we'll be happy he is dead and how sick he is.
isnt us rooting a death kinda bad too?




...


puppy_dog_eyes.gif
jethawk

Joined: Jul 07 2004
Posts: 1242
Location: Windsor, Ontario, Canada


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Tue Dec 13, 2005 7:38 am

IceDog wrote:
Not a car accident *******. Purposely driving into the pedestrians! Definition of a mistake is An error or fault resulting from defective judgment, deficient knowledge, or carelessness. Just because it was on purpose doesn't automatically dismiss it as a mistake. I'm not saying he should not die. I am saying he deserves respect for changing his ways based on his mistakes. Everyone has to pay for their mistakes. He has paid for killing 4 people with his execution, he has paid for co-founding a gang with anti-gang movements and an apology to the youth who have suffered from gangs.


no need to call someone a ******* because they have a difference of opinion..... he knew what he was doing at the time...and what the consequences would be for his actions..... if your not willing to accept the consequences for your actions... then simply dont do them....he deserves to die...along with every other murderer proven guilty.... i just wish they'd have the death sentance in canada... but sped the waiting list to ohhh around 2 years....
IceDog

Joined: Feb 13 2005
Posts: 321
Location: Montana


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Tue Dec 13, 2005 8:45 am

jethawk wrote:
IceDog wrote:
Not a car accident *******. Purposely driving into the pedestrians! Definition of a mistake is An error or fault resulting from defective judgment, deficient knowledge, or carelessness. Just because it was on purpose doesn't automatically dismiss it as a mistake. I'm not saying he should not die. I am saying he deserves respect for changing his ways based on his mistakes. Everyone has to pay for their mistakes. He has paid for killing 4 people with his execution, he has paid for co-founding a gang with anti-gang movements and an apology to the youth who have suffered from gangs.


no need to call someone a ******* because they have a difference of opinion..... he knew what he was doing at the time...and what the consequences would be for his actions..... if your not willing to accept the consequences for your actions... then simply dont do them....he deserves to die...along with every other murderer proven guilty.... i just wish they'd have the death sentance in canada... but sped the waiting list to ohhh around 2 years....


You are not understanding why I called him that. I said that because those two examples were not accidents, but they were intentional. My point from those examples was that it is so easy to kill someone. All you need is some lack of judgement and you make the wrong choices in life.

May I also point out, its not right to call someone a "sack of s*hit" as mccook said, yet you had no problem with that.
Losing quickly

Joined: Apr 26 2005
Posts: 5706
Location: SC


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:10 am

He made the choice to kill people, therefore he has to pay the consequences. my .02
jethawk

Joined: Jul 07 2004
Posts: 1242
Location: Windsor, Ontario, Canada


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:18 am

anybody who kills 4 people should be considered a sack of ****... thats why i didnt say anything... icon_rolleyes.gif
mccook8

Joined: Jun 01 2004
Posts: 744


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Tue Dec 13, 2005 12:40 pm

IceDog wrote:
Quote:
tick tock tick tock

just 18 more minutes, and it's ma-asalaama, motherf&*ker to another murdering sack of ****

Are you saying, in 26 years its impossible for a man to change?


No, I believe that 26 years is plenty of time for MOST people to change. But the first step in changing is to take responsibility for the evil you've done. Tookie never did that, not once.


IceDog wrote:
He spent most of his time in solitary.


Why do you suppose THAT was?



IceDog wrote:
Thats a lot of time to think about what you have done. A lot of time to think about how you f*cked up your life. A lot of time to think about when your time comes for the needles in your arms.


A lot of time to decide to say, "What I did was wrong. I'm sorry. I am so, so sorry. I caused those families so much grief, and there is no excuse for what I have done. I am ready to accept my punishment. I am not asking for my ACTIONS to be excused. Please forgive me as a PERSON, though."

....but he never did.....

IceDog wrote:
Everyday I ask myself what would happen if I turned my steering wheel a few degrees to the right, and ran over some pedestrians. What would my family say after they heard that I broke someones neck during a fight. (On Purpose) Sometimes I think that my subconscious will take over and I will act on what I had just imagined.


If you're even a borderline decent human being, those things will never happen. Every creature....EVERY creature on this planet, humans included, is born with a revulsion toward killing their own species. For HUMANS, you can add to that the cumulative effects of parenting, religion and socialization. Even up until now, for MOST Americans, those factors merely strengthen that aversion. This has been extensively studied, especially by the US military, in order to engineer training to overcome that.



IceDog wrote:
We all make mistakes.


Hell, I've made LOTS of mistakes. Mind, you none of them involved the cold-blooded, premeditated murder of four unarmed, defenseless innocents for a grand payoff of $240.......actually, that's $60 when you split it four ways.

IceDog wrote:
He deserves respect for living out the latter part of his life with anti-gang violence and helping children make right choices, avoiding the life that he has lived.


You mean the children's books he wrote, that sold a whopping 300 or so copies?

You mean the made-for-TV movie starring Jamie Foxx that doesn't even SHOW what he was convicted of?


IceDog wrote:
As of this time, aprx. 10 minutes away from his execution, I have nothing but respect for Tookie.


I was asleep at the time. But, as of that time, had I not been sleeping peacefully, knowing that justice was underway, I would have felt nothing but contempt for the UNREPENTANT murderer Stanley Tookie Williams.

IceDog wrote:
I hope he has a very inspiring message, when his last words come, to carry on his dreams of a peaceful world.


Well, so far, every message he's issued has been self-serving.

If the message he passed on to his witnesses in the execution chamber is ever passed on, I'm gonna go out on an extremely sturdy limb here and predict it'll be something hateful and divisive, and quite possibly a call for his supporters to commit murder and mayhem against society in general, and "whitey" in particular.

IceDog wrote:
I am saying he deserves respect for changing his ways based on his mistakes. Everyone has to pay for their mistakes.


Tookie didn't change his ways. The State of California took away his ABILITY to exercise those ways, by taking away his shotgun, his freedom, and his ability to lead his band of thugs, and by separating him from decent people, and then even from other evil people when he proved to be too evil to live amongst them.

I'll grant you that NOW, as I type this, Tookie HAS paid for his "mistakes".

IceDog wrote:
He has paid for killing 4 people with his execution, which is questionable whether he is innocent or not,


Whoa! You can't POSSIBLY be serious! ALL THREE of the other robbers, at one time or another, testified that Tookie pulled the trigger. When questioned by police, even while denying having any part in the crimes, he asked questions which indicated an intimate knowledge of details of the crimes. As far as the "questionable ballistics evidence", here's the deal: the defense is trying to imply that the prosecution is trying to match shotgun PELLETS to Tookie's shotgun, which would in fact not only be questionable, but total ****. The FACT is that they matched the shotshell CASINGS found at the scenes to a shotgun BOUGHT by Tookie several years beforehand and found IN TOOKIE'S POSSESSION after the murders, by matching up firing pin and extractor marks. Incidentally, between the time he bought it and used it to gun down four innocents for a whopping $15 each, Tookie sawed off the stock and cut down the barrel.

IceDog wrote:
he has paid for co-founding a gang with anti-gang movements and an apology to the youth who have suffered from gangs.


But he REFUSES to help authorities by providing even general information about those same gangs.......

IceDog wrote:

My point from those examples was that it is so easy to kill someone. All you need is some lack of judgement and you make the wrong choices in life.


It's not so easy for a DECENT HUMAN BEING to kill someone.

How easy do you think it would be to kill someone who's not trying to hurt you, who doesn't have the MEANS to hurt you, and who's done nothing to make you angry?

IceDog wrote:
May I also point out, its not right to call someone a "sack of s*hit" as mccook said, yet you had no problem with that.


Actually, it was MURDERING sack of ****.

The MURDERING part was proven in a jury trial that probably happened before you were even BORN, and has survived 13 major legal challenges since then.

The sack of **** part is something I divine from Tookie's actions, which, I say again, are things no DECENT human being would do. Note the repeated emphasis upon the word DECENT. I'm not talking about saints or angels here. Hell, I'm not even talking about GOOD human beings.

Just DECENT human beings. So-so. All right, I guess.

Tookie wasn't even that. He was an evil creature, and I would consider those like him (for clarity - savage, egocentric cold-blooded killers -- this has not a damn thing to do with race) to be human solely in the biological sense.

Human WASTE, contained by skin.

A sack of ****.
Bobby Lee

Joined: Mar 01 2003
Posts: 3881


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Tue Dec 13, 2005 12:59 pm

mccook8 wrote:
and it's ma-asalaama, motherf&*ker


haha! ma-asalaama, lol. Where'd you learn Arabic at McCook? icon_lol.gif As far as Tookie, i know i'm a bit late, but i think that he should've been "brutally murdered with a shotgun to the back of the head." A shot of potassium chloride seems like too easy of a way to go. especially for doing what he did... just my opinion.
mccook8

Joined: Jun 01 2004
Posts: 744


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Tue Dec 13, 2005 1:08 pm

Rags wrote:
i see what icedog is saying.
and i know what he means.
how old is everyone on this forum?
the majority are under 26 or around it, imagine your lifetime being spent in solitary confinement. institutionalized, i mean i cant say that what he did was right because i dont govern what society dictates as right or wrong. my morals state it was wrong, but my morals also cant inject a man with about 100mL of potassium and watch him take 3 breaths and his eyes glaze over.
morally speaking, i think he probably had different morals before he pulled the trigger than what he had an hour before he was injected.
either way, i also dont think its moral for us to sit here and go on about how he should die, and we'll be happy he is dead and how sick he is.
isnt us rooting a death kinda bad too?




...


puppy_dog_eyes.gif


It's not the death, so much, that I favor......it's the JUSTICE.

A lot of people get conflicted about capital punishment. They see it as retaliation, vengeance, just another form of killing, morally equivalent to murder.

I don't see it that way. I see it as the surest form of exile, and as a preventative measure against FURTHER murders. As far as I'm concerned, when a person has demonstrated that he/she cannot be trusted to live among other human beings without posing a substantial deadly threat to them, he/she should be separated from society, to protect society. And if he/she further poses a deadly threat to other PRISONERS, he/she should be killed, to protect other prisoners.

...and I'm 41.
mccook8

Joined: Jun 01 2004
Posts: 744


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Tue Dec 13, 2005 1:22 pm

Bobby Lee wrote:
[
haha! ma-asalaama, lol. Where'd you learn Arabic at McCook?


I took a couple of little trips back in 89-91.......couple of Persian Excursions to Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Iraq.......

There might be another 10 or so words/phrases that might come back to me if I heard them. Off the top of my head:

a salaam alaykum (hello)
shukran (thank you)
qif (stop)
imshii (get out of here, leave, scram) - actually, not totally sure that's Arabic

What little civil contact I had with Arabic-speaking civilians was mainly about shopping in Aqaba (where most shopkeepers spoke a little English) and dealing with refugees in Iraq (which was mostly about handing them MREs and water and pointing them south).

As for non-civil and military contacts, not much call for conversation there.
Bobby Lee

Joined: Mar 01 2003
Posts: 3881


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Tue Dec 13, 2005 1:35 pm

cool... yeah, all of those are just basic type things, however "imshii" sounds like it could possibly be dialect. not sure about that though. i'll ask one of my teachers...

Edit: Just looked it up. Comes from the root "masha-ah" which means "to walk." "imshii" would be the imperative form of it meaing "walk." So it would work to use it as a command...


Last edited by Bobby Lee on Tue Dec 13, 2005 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total
jol102001

Joined: Feb 12 2004
Posts: 5815
Location: Lake Charles, LA -- USA


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Tue Dec 13, 2005 2:33 pm

My vote: they should have let him rot in jail.

1) cheaper
2) it would have been worst for him b/c then he would have had time to think about it.... by giving him the needle, he just falls alseep.
mccook8

Joined: Jun 01 2004
Posts: 744


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Tue Dec 13, 2005 2:53 pm

jol102001 wrote:
My vote: they should have let him rot in jail.

1) cheaper
2) it would have been worst for him b/c then he would have had time to think about it.... by giving him the needle, he just falls alseep.


There was a time, about 120 or so years ago, when death sentences sounded something like this:

"You shall be taken from this court to a place of execution, where you shall be hanged by the neck until dead."

....and this was BEFORE most forensic science.....

There was a time, only about 50 or so years ago, when condemned murderers were executed within a matter of MONTHS of sentencing.

There was a time, only about 35 years ago, when condemned murderers were executed within 1-2 years of sentencing.

...but since the early 70's, when the bleeding hearts got their way, it's been taking, on the average, about 15 YEARS between sentencing and execution.

There are statistics that show that the average DEATH ROW prisoner survives LONGER in prison than the average prisoner sentenced to life without the possibility of parole.

....but if you abandon death sentences, the bleeding hearts will simply turn their efforts toward life sentences......

/edit:

Example:

Quote:
"JOSE MANUEL MIGUEL XAVIER GONZALEZ, in a few short weeks it will be spring. The snows of winter will flow away, the ice will vanish, the air will become soft and balmy. In short, JOSE MANUEL MIGUEL XAVIER GONZALEZ, the annual miracle of the years will awaken, and come to pass.
But you won't be there.
The rivers will run their soaring course to the sea, the timid desert flowers will put forth their tender shoots, the glorious valleys of the imperial domain will blossom as the rose.
Still, you won't be there to see.
From every treetop some wild woods songster will carol his mating song, butterflies will sport in the sunshine, the busy bee will hum happy as it pursues its accustomed vocation, the gentle breeze will tease the tassels of the wild grasses and all nature, JOSE MANUEL MIGUEL XAVIER GONZALEZ, will be glad but you.
You won't be there to enjoy it because I command the sheriff of the county to lead you away to some remote spot, swing you by the neck from a knotting bough of some sturdy oak, and let you hang until you are dead.
And then, JOSE MANUEL MIGUEL XAVIER GONZALEZ, I further command that such officer retire quickly from your dangling corpse, that vultures may descend from the heavens upon your filthy body until nothing remains but bare bleached bones of a cold-blooded, blood-thirsty, throat-cutting, chili-eating, sheep-herding, murdering son of a *****."
~Attributed to Judge Roy Bean
FatManDan

Joined: May 30 2004
Posts: 2766
Location: Roseville, MI


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Tue Dec 13, 2005 4:24 pm

^heheheheheheheheheheheh^


oh and 41? **** old fart icon_biggrin.gif
02BlueStang

Joined: Dec 13 2004
Posts: 4757


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Tue Dec 13, 2005 6:06 pm

IceDog wrote:
Quote:
tick tock tick tock

just 18 more minutes, and it's ma-asalaama, motherf&*ker to another murdering sack of ****

Everyday I ask myself what would happen if I turned my steering wheel a few degrees to the right, and ran over some pedestrians. What would my family say after they heard that I broke someones neck during a fight. (On Purpose) Sometimes I think that my subconscious will take over and I will act on what I had just imagined.
We all make mistakes. He deserves respect for living out the latter part of his life with anti-gang violence and helping children make right choices, avoiding the life that he has lived.
As of this time, aprx. 10 minutes away from his execution, I have nothing but respect for Tookie. I hope he has a very inspiring message, when his last words come, to carry on his dreams of a peaceful world.


Not to pick on you, but he should have lived his entire life like that....He took the lives of not 4 people, but of there brothers and sisters, husbands and wives, parents, other kids, and anyone that ever came into contact with them or did not because of what he did....

He did do good things while he was in prison, but that does not excuse what he did....If I steal your car, crash it, and tell you 15 years later that I was sorry for doing it and take out your trash, wash your new car, go to the grocery store for you it still does not change the fact that I stole your car to begin with....

I dont get why people think Tookie is such a great guy....He was only doing what he should have done in the first place...Tell people to stay away from crime, drugs and gangs.....There are millions of people in the world that have pledged the same message their entire lives, yet we dont see them getting rewarded for things that they SHOULD be doing in the first place.....

Just because he was ignorant enough to believe the crap that he did when he was younger and act the way he did doesnt mean that society should envy him for something he was supposed to be doing in the first place...Im tired of stupid people getting credit and rewarded for crap they are supposed to do in the first place....
02BlueStang

Joined: Dec 13 2004
Posts: 4757


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Tue Dec 13, 2005 6:18 pm

jol102001 wrote:
My vote: they should have let him rot in jail.

1) cheaper
2) it would have been worst for him b/c then he would have had time to think about it.... by giving him the needle, he just falls alseep.


I disagree, it is cheaper to kill his ass...I dont want to foot his medical bill, Cable bill, dinner bill, sleeping bill, etc any longer....

If I had my way he would get 1 chance to appeal, then take him out back and hang his ass...problem solved, no overcrowding of prisons and less money spent in taxes and able to go towards schools etc....

Hell, here in Washington the prisoners complained that they "didnt have enough art in the prison and it was against their constitutional rights because they were not able to explore the mind and it intruded on their natural rights to expand learning"....so the county spent 10 MILLION DOLLARS to put up paintings and what not inside the jail...WTF is that icon_mad.gif
IceDog

Joined: Feb 13 2005
Posts: 321
Location: Montana


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Tue Dec 13, 2005 6:35 pm

Quote:
IceDog wrote:
He spent most of his time in solitary.


Why do you suppose THAT was?

Just because you go to jail doesn't mean you change instantly.
Quote:
STANLEY TOOKIE WILLIAMS: Well, I can quite -- I can easily demythologize the thought that, well, a person, when he goes to prison, of course, they'll change. They're locked up. That's not so, because I was incorrigible from the moment I got here all the way up to 1988, so that debunks that theory. And once I was in solitary confinement, it provided me with the isolated moments to reflect on my past and to dwell upon something greater, something better than involving myself in thuggery and criminality. It had to be more to life than that. It had to be more than the madness that was disseminating throughout this entire prison.



Quote:
IceDog wrote:
Thats a lot of time to think about what you have done. A lot of time to think about how you f*cked up your life. A lot of time to think about when your time comes for the needles in your arms.


A lot of time to decide to say, "What I did was wrong. I'm sorry. I am so, so sorry. I caused those families so much grief, and there is no excuse for what I have done. I am ready to accept my punishment. I am not asking for my ACTIONS to be excused. Please forgive me as a PERSON, though."

....but he never did.....

U.S. Justice found him guilty of murder. That doesn't automatically say he was the killer. Let's say he was innocent, why should he apologize for something he did not commit. Why should he ask for forgiveness? Now, I am not saying that he is innocent nor guilty, thats not my intention.

Quote:
IceDog wrote:
Everyday I ask myself what would happen if I turned my steering wheel a few degrees to the right, and ran over some pedestrians. What would my family say after they heard that I broke someones neck during a fight. (On Purpose) Sometimes I think that my subconscious will take over and I will act on what I had just imagined.


If you're even a borderline decent human being, those things will never happen. Every creature....EVERY creature on this planet, humans included, is born with a revulsion toward killing their own species. For HUMANS, you can add to that the cumulative effects of parenting, religion and socialization. Even up until now, for MOST Americans, those factors merely strengthen that aversion. This has been extensively studied, especially by the US military, in order to engineer training to overcome that.

Creatures are not born with a revulsion to killing their own species. Male animals fight other males over a mate. Dolphins, bears, lions, and even gerbils engage in infanticide. (eating of their young). Humans are worse. Religion can lead to crusades and racism. (both leading to massacres) The reason why a military exists is to protect the nation from threats "foreign and domestic" Terrorists kill people. Hitler had people killed over a culture. How many sociopaths has the government put away. and yes, america is full of them. http://ranprieur.com/readings/americanpsycho.html

Quote:
IceDog wrote:
We all make mistakes.


Hell, I've made LOTS of mistakes. Mind, you none of them involved the cold-blooded, premeditated murder of four unarmed, defenseless innocents for a grand payoff of $240.......actually, that's $60 when you split it four ways.

Lack of judgement and an amoral perspective may be quite a large mistake, but quite feasable.

Quote:
IceDog wrote:
I hope he has a very inspiring message, when his last words come, to carry on his dreams of a peaceful world.


Well, so far, every message he's issued has been self-serving.

If the message he passed on to his witnesses in the execution chamber is ever passed on, I'm gonna go out on an extremely sturdy limb here and predict it'll be something hateful and divisive, and quite possibly a call for his supporters to commit murder and mayhem against society in general, and "whitey" in particular.

His messages have not been self-serving.
Quote:
AMY GOODMAN: And what is the message that you are trying to send? Who are you talking to among the youth in this country?

STANLEY TOOKIE WILLIAMS: I’m talking to any youth who are considered to be or deemed to be at-risk or even hinting around being a thug or a criminal of any type of genre. I mostly propagate education and the need for it, because to me, that is the terra firma in which any human being must stand in order to survive in this country or to survive anywhere in the world, in dealing, you know, with every aspect of civilization, every aspect of surviving. Education is very important. It took me all of these years to discern that, and now I do.



Quote:
IceDog wrote:
I am saying he deserves respect for changing his ways based on his mistakes. Everyone has to pay for their mistakes.


Tookie didn't change his ways. The State of California took away his ABILITY to exercise those ways, by taking away his shotgun, his freedom, and his ability to lead his band of thugs, and by separating him from decent people, and then even from other evil people when he proved to be too evil to live amongst them.

I'll grant you that NOW, as I type this, Tookie HAS paid for his "mistakes".

We have the State of California to thank for changing his gang violence ways. That doesn't mean prison is the only means of support for gang members. Because he has changed his ways, he was trying to tell children to avoid making the same choices he has made as a gangster which would stear them away from going to prison to change their ways as well.

Quote:
IceDog wrote:
He has paid for killing 4 people with his execution, which is questionable whether he is innocent or not,


Whoa! You can't POSSIBLY be serious! ALL THREE of the other robbers, at one time or another, testified that Tookie pulled the trigger. When questioned by police, even while denying having any part in the crimes, he asked questions which indicated an intimate knowledge of details of the crimes. As far as the "questionable ballistics evidence", here's the deal: the defense is trying to imply that the prosecution is trying to match shotgun PELLETS to Tookie's shotgun, which would in fact not only be questionable, but total ****. The FACT is that they matched the shotshell CASINGS found at the scenes to a shotgun BOUGHT by Tookie several years beforehand and found IN TOOKIE'S POSSESSION after the murders, by matching up firing pin and extractor marks. Incidentally, between the time he bought it and used it to gun down four innocents for a whopping $15 each, Tookie sawed off the stock and cut down the barrel.

Your so called "fact" is FALSE! Deputy James Warner, analystic of the shotgun, did not run tests such as those.
Quote:
Warner testified29 that he fired Williams’ shotgun (a twelve-gauge High Standard slide-action shotgun, serial number 3194397) eighteen (1icon_cool.gif times. (Peo. exh. 8; RT 1515-1516.) Warner compared those 18 shells with the expended shell found at the motel (Peo. exh. 9-E) under a comparison microscope. (RT 1516-1517.) Of the 18 test firings, Warner found only two (2) shells that had “sufficient marks” for a “comparison.” (RT 1520.) “The other shells were not getting a significant hit to get good marks from the breach face.” (RT 1521.) Warner said that unspecified “marks” caused by the “breach face and firing pin” were “similar” to marks on the expended shell (Peo. exh. 9-E.). Warner apparently did not make any effort to examine and compare ejector and extractor marks on the recovered spent shotgun shell with those of his test firings. These markings are important class characteristics (and potentially sub-class characteristics) that should be examined and identified, if at all possible.30 Warner then concluded that 9-E was fired by People’s Exhibit 8. (RT 1522.) Warner also testified that the expended shell could not have been fired from any other shotgun because he could “find sufficient patterns within the breach face and the firing pin.” (RT 1522-1522.) Contrary to standard practice, Warner did not identify the markings on the spent shotgun shells by class, sub-class, and individual characteristics. His report lacks specificity regarding the type, location, and dimensions of any toolmark impressions that he utilized in his comparison and subsequent identification. Thus, there is no scientific basis for his claim that there was a “match.”31



Quote:
IceDog wrote:

My point from those examples was that it is so easy to kill someone. All you need is some lack of judgement and you make the wrong choices in life.


It's not so easy for a DECENT HUMAN BEING to kill someone.

How easy do you think it would be to kill someone who's not trying to hurt you, who doesn't have the MEANS to hurt you, and who's done nothing to make you angry?

Easier than you think. Hitler did more than just murder; he did genocide just for ethnic cleansing. Allegedly Tookie did it. You said it yourself, he killed someone for 240 dollars, 60 a piece.

Quote:
I don't see it that way. I see it as the surest form of exile, and as a preventative measure against FURTHER murders. As far as I'm concerned, when a person has demonstrated that he/she cannot be trusted to live among other human beings without posing a substantial deadly threat to them, he/she should be separated from society, to protect society. And if he/she further poses a deadly threat to other PRISONERS, he/she should be killed, to protect other prisoners.

I do not see it your way. Society should not be protected from individuals deadly or not. Individuals need to be protected from society. Gangs are an effect of society. Do you think its right that we don't have anti-lynching laws. When a large crowd kills a person and no one person did the entire act, no one is prosecuted. It is society we have to worry about.


Hes dead now and honestly its not worth my time justifying respect for him over an internet forum to someone I have never met before. Believe what you want. Im done. My views will stay the same.
Tim

Joined: Nov 16 2003
Posts: 10795
Location: Kalamazoo, MI


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Tue Dec 13, 2005 6:45 pm

02BlueStang wrote:


Hell, here in Washington the prisoners complained that they "didnt have enough art in the prison and it was against their constitutional rights because they were not able to explore the mind and it intruded on their natural rights to expand learning"....so the county spent 10 MILLION DOLLARS to put up paintings and what not inside the jail...WTF is that icon_mad.gif


Prisons don't need to have art in them. 12'x12' cell with one small window and a door. They don't deserve something pretty to look at after they got done murdering someone. I feel sorry for you Washington tax payers.
Rags

Joined: Apr 21 2005
Posts: 3527
Location: dayton


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Tue Dec 13, 2005 7:15 pm

mccook8 wrote:
Rags wrote:
i see what icedog is saying.
and i know what he means.
how old is everyone on this forum?
the majority are under 26 or around it, imagine your lifetime being spent in solitary confinement. institutionalized, i mean i cant say that what he did was right because i dont govern what society dictates as right or wrong. my morals state it was wrong, but my morals also cant inject a man with about 100mL of potassium and watch him take 3 breaths and his eyes glaze over.
morally speaking, i think he probably had different morals before he pulled the trigger than what he had an hour before he was injected.
either way, i also dont think its moral for us to sit here and go on about how he should die, and we'll be happy he is dead and how sick he is.
isnt us rooting a death kinda bad too?




...


puppy_dog_eyes.gif


It's not the death, so much, that I favor......it's the JUSTICE.

A lot of people get conflicted about capital punishment. They see it as retaliation, vengeance, just another form of killing, morally equivalent to murder.

I don't see it that way. I see it as the surest form of exile, and as a preventative measure against FURTHER murders. As far as I'm concerned, when a person has demonstrated that he/she cannot be trusted to live among other human beings without posing a substantial deadly threat to them, he/she should be separated from society, to protect society. And if he/she further poses a deadly threat to other PRISONERS, he/she should be killed, to protect other prisoners.

...and I'm 41.



i agree he is ****. but i can never justify taking someones life. thats just where i stand.
and i know your older than 26, thats why i said most.
mccook8

Joined: Jun 01 2004
Posts: 744


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Tue Dec 13, 2005 8:05 pm

IceDog, I know virtually nothing about you, other than what I've seen you post here.

From that little bit, I know that you live in Los Angeles, have at least recently and to some extent followed the situation regarding Tookie, choose to believe what Tookie's DEFENSE ATTORNEYS have to say rather than what judges and juries have decided is more likely the truth, and you have perused at least two far-left websites.

Allow me to tell you about just one extremely minor and recent example of my own experience with "jailhouse redemption". Within the last few months, another area agency brought a young man to our jail on a couple of warrants. I had an additional case against him, and when he was brought in, I advised him that he was also under arrest for THAT (a violent crime which happened to be a low-level felony). This young man had always been a problem child, always full of attitude. Surprisingly, he was 110% polite, even apologetic on this evening. A perfect gentleman. I would not have thought it possible. He talked about how he'd had all these problems before, and was trying soooooo hard to put all that behind him. He'd seen the error of his ways, and would NEVER go back to his old, violent, drug-addled lifestyle. I spoke kindly to him, reassured him that he would be able to get his life together if he just stuck with it, and commended him on having the guts to try. A couple of hours after I put him in a cell, our dispatcher/jailer told me that he had asked if I could tell the judge how cooperative he had been. I was suspicious, so I went ahead and typed a memo, but kept it factual: he BEHAVED in a polite, cooperative manner. He SAID that he had abandoned his old ways and was trying to straighten up and fly right. The next night, when I came back to work, I listened to a recorded message on his most recent victim's voicemail, in which Mr. I've-turned-my-life-around threatened the victim with extreme physical violence if they did not "drop the charges." The call was made from our jail, shortly before he went to court and gave the judge the very same "redemption" song and dance.

Oh, and he was "innocent", too..... icon_rolleyes.gif

Speaking of which, I don't know if you know this, but the VAST majority of prisoners claim that they did not commit the crime they were imprisoned for, to the point where it is actually considered RUDE to ask an inmate "What'd you DO?" You must always merely ask what they were CONVICTED of.......

For those out there who like to quote Nietzsche and say "God is dead", I say, no way -- he's alive and well and quite obviously living in every jail and prison in the United States of America, if not every one in the WORLD....because all of the INCARCERATED criminals find him there. He's obviously not on the street, because He sure is invisible to them there........
mccook8

Joined: Jun 01 2004
Posts: 744


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Tue Dec 13, 2005 8:27 pm

IceDog wrote:
Creatures are not born with a revulsion to killing their own species. Male animals fight other males over a mate. Dolphins, bears, lions, and even gerbils engage in infanticide. (eating of their young). Humans are worse. Religion can lead to crusades and racism. (both leading to massacres) The reason why a military exists is to protect the nation from threats "foreign and domestic" Terrorists kill people. Hitler had people killed over a culture. How many sociopaths has the government put away. and yes, america is full of them. http://ranprieur.com/readings/americanpsycho.html


Quote:
One major modern revelation in the field of military psychology is the observation that such resistance to killing one's own species is also a key factor in human combat. *Brig. Gen. S. L. A. Marshall first observed this during his work as an official U.S. Army historian in the Pacific and European theaters of operations in World War II. Based on his post-combat interviews, Marshall concluded in his book Men Against Fire (1946, 1978) that only 15 to 20 percent of the individual riflemen in World War II fired their own weapons at an exposed enemy soldier. Key weapons, such as *flame-throwers, were usually fired. Crew-served weapons, such as *machine guns, almost always were fired. And action would increase greatly if a nearby leader demanded that the soldier fire. But when left on their own, the great majority of individual combatants appear to have been unable or unwilling to kill.



Read the whole thing, and other writings of Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, an actual EXPERT on the subject, here:

After that, you might read THIS: http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/sunday/commentary/la-op-tookie4dec04,0,2958733.story?coll=la-sunday-commentary

As for all the rest of the "innocence" CRAP, here are the FACTS, straight from the source:
pontiac4evr_14

Joined: Apr 04 2003
Posts: 2512
Location: Manson, IA


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:06 am

mccook you are my god. My personal opinion if a person is convicted of murder they should be killed in the same fasion. if they stab someone to death with a pen they should be stabbed to death with a pen if they shoot someone in the head they should be shot in the head. If they commit several murders they should be killed in the slowest most painful method they used.

EYE for and EYE Golden rule:do on to other as you would want done onto you
Rags

Joined: Apr 21 2005
Posts: 3527
Location: dayton


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:19 am

what if you accidentally step on someones foot, should they get to step on yours?
if you accidentally hit someone's car, should they be alot to hit yours?
i think the eye for an eye rule is a pathetic way to form justice.
justice in itself can never properly reflect societies true morals because they change so rapidly. remember roe v wade? now whats going on with abortion?
i honestly just thing we should see a situation fully before ever acting "justly" on it.
mccook8

Joined: Jun 01 2004
Posts: 744


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Wed Dec 14, 2005 2:01 am

I've never agreed with that whole "eye for an eye" concept applied to the method of execution.

To my way of thinking, executing a murderer shouldn't be viewed as PUNISHMENT, or even as vengeance, but rather as prevention and deterrence.

The method really doesn't matter, just the result. If they could develop a method whereby death is instantaneous, completely painless, and the body is not only not damaged, but actually preserved, that'd be just awesome. That way, they could be taken directly from the execution chamber to their final resting place.

Abortion? You bring up abortion? Have you ever noticed how those who oppose the death penalty on the basis of valuing human life tend to think nothing of killing an unborn child?

And, yes, I know it goes both ways. There IS an explanation, you know, but you're not going to like it.

It's about people taking responsibility for their actions, or not. Think about it.

In the real world, and in any civilized society, actions have consequences. Rights go hand in hand with responsibilities. Freedoms are inseparably attached to duties.
Squeak

Joined: Mar 20 2005
Posts: 206


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:44 am

McCook reminds me of my Honors seminar teacher, that guy makes you look at each situation from all sides. Guess that's part of being a cop, though...Right?
Cerwin Vega Fan

Joined: Jul 22 2003
Posts: 3001


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:31 pm

Some actions can be forgiven some cannot. I found it kind of ironic how after his execution police in all the major west coast cities were told to be on high alert since their was a chance of riots breaking out. icon_rolleyes.gif


Last edited by Cerwin Vega Fan on Thu Dec 15, 2005 8:52 am, edited 2 times in total
Rags

Joined: Apr 21 2005
Posts: 3527
Location: dayton


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:07 pm

my statement on abortion is only to show an example of how societies "morals" sway during the years and justice's gray areas have trouble keeping up.
ProjectRAGE

Joined: Mar 04 2003
Posts: 4504


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:49 pm

Riots after the execution, yea that'll solve things. icon_rolleyes.gif
jol102001

Joined: Feb 12 2004
Posts: 5815
Location: Lake Charles, LA -- USA


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:15 pm

02BlueStang wrote:
jol102001 wrote:
My vote: they should have let him rot in jail.

1) cheaper
2) it would have been worst for him b/c then he would have had time to think about it.... by giving him the needle, he just falls alseep.


I disagree, it is cheaper to kill his ass...I dont want to foot his medical bill, Cable bill, dinner bill, sleeping bill, etc any longer....

If I had my way he would get 1 chance to appeal, then take him out back and hang his ass...problem solved, no overcrowding of prisons and less money spent in taxes and able to go towards schools etc....

Hell, here in Washington the prisoners complained that they "didnt have enough art in the prison and it was against their constitutional rights because they were not able to explore the mind and it intruded on their natural rights to expand learning"....so the county spent 10 MILLION DOLLARS to put up paintings and what not inside the jail...WTF is that icon_mad.gif


no, it really is cheaper to keep them there for life. It cost millions to kill one person b/c 'the needle has to be sterile' icon_rolleyes.gif and **** like that.
Squeak

Joined: Mar 20 2005
Posts: 206


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:16 pm

jol102001 wrote:
02BlueStang wrote:
jol102001 wrote:
My vote: they should have let him rot in jail.

1) cheaper
2) it would have been worst for him b/c then he would have had time to think about it.... by giving him the needle, he just falls alseep.


I disagree, it is cheaper to kill his ass...I dont want to foot his medical bill, Cable bill, dinner bill, sleeping bill, etc any longer....

If I had my way he would get 1 chance to appeal, then take him out back and hang his ass...problem solved, no overcrowding of prisons and less money spent in taxes and able to go towards schools etc....

Hell, here in Washington the prisoners complained that they "didnt have enough art in the prison and it was against their constitutional rights because they were not able to explore the mind and it intruded on their natural rights to expand learning"....so the county spent 10 MILLION DOLLARS to put up paintings and what not inside the jail...WTF is that icon_mad.gif


no, it really is cheaper to keep them there for life. It cost millions to kill one person b/c 'the needle has to be sterile' icon_rolleyes.gif and **** like that.


Of course, we wouldn't want them to burn in hell with an infection would we?
Rags

Joined: Apr 21 2005
Posts: 3527
Location: dayton


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:27 pm

actually considering the facts a clean needle is needed in case the person executed donates blood or organs. its a shot of potassium, good for stoping blood to your brain, but not for killing livers. also if the shot were not to kill which is actually possible because of the amount of potassium being injected, the "executed" could legally sue the state for cruel and unusual punishment.
the clean needle factor is based on religion and cruel and unusual punishment clauses. from what i have heard. icon_confused.gif if that makes any sense.
Squeak

Joined: Mar 20 2005
Posts: 206


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Wed Dec 14, 2005 11:40 pm

Makes sense, but I dunno if I'd want to be walking around with a murderers kidney in me.
Rags

Joined: Apr 21 2005
Posts: 3527
Location: dayton


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Thu Dec 15, 2005 12:12 am

chances are your not going to really know a whole lot about the doner of a kidney, maybe his or her body mass blood type and such. but for a kidney i dont think you will care seeing as you need it kinda bad. livers, theres like a 2 year list to get a liver transplant because so many people drink themselves to kill their liver.
audio_excessories

Joined: Aug 20 2005
Posts: 1662
Location: Michigan/ Florida


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Thu Dec 15, 2005 8:05 pm

Okay, am I the only one who also believes that STW also ruined countless other lives and had a hand in countless other murders simply by starting his "gang".

He deserved to die for the crimes he was CONVICTED of.

That's my $0.02
Glowin97x

Joined: Mar 13 2004
Posts: 608
Location: Malibu, CA


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Fri Dec 16, 2005 8:00 pm

Rags wrote:
actually considering the facts a clean needle is needed in case the person executed donates blood or organs. its a shot of potassium, good for stoping blood to your brain, but not for killing livers. also if the shot were not to kill which is actually possible because of the amount of potassium being injected, the "executed" could legally sue the state for cruel and unusual punishment.
the clean needle factor is based on religion and cruel and unusual punishment clauses. from what i have heard. icon_confused.gif if that makes any sense.


Not true on the suing for cruel and unusual punishment see Gregg v. Georgia.
U.S. Supreme Court 1976.
Rags

Joined: Apr 21 2005
Posts: 3527
Location: dayton


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Sat Dec 17, 2005 5:03 am

the cruel and unusual punishment clause is being refered to as using dirty needles. not the actual death sentence as is exhibited in that case.
i am saying it can be argued cruel and unusual to kill someone using nonsterile needles do to religious and other moral beliefs.
its bad enough to be put to death, but the fact that the needle could have aids on it is kinda overkill and can be argued in the 8th.
cardinalsfan

Joined: Jan 08 2005
Posts: 1707
Location: OKC


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Sat Dec 17, 2005 5:42 am

i didnt read any of this so if im repeating someone, sorry....heres my thoughts, you do the crime you do the time, its justice!! i dont care if he could be a benefit to society or whatnot, he killed people and was sentenced to death, therefore he should be killed. he had his time to do good for society, something like 25 years in prison? also, he wasnt as good as we are led to believe, the people in his jail had him labeled as a trouble prisoner...food for thought...rotisseree i think
Glowin97x

Joined: Mar 13 2004
Posts: 608
Location: Malibu, CA


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Sat Dec 17, 2005 5:18 pm

Rags wrote:
the cruel and unusual punishment clause is being refered to as using dirty needles. not the actual death sentence as is exhibited in that case.
i am saying it can be argued cruel and unusual to kill someone using nonsterile needles do to religious and other moral beliefs.
its bad enough to be put to death, but the fact that the needle could have aids on it is kinda overkill and can be argued in the 8th.


And Im saying there is no way in hell any court would ever buy that argument. And by the way the needles come pre-sterilized its not the swab that does it. So even without the swab the needles would be sterilized. The reason they are swabbed is incase a stay of execution comes over the line after the IV tube is put in to prevent infection.

Some states still have legalized firing squad executions so I'm going to suggest that not swabbing someones arm isnt going to hold any water under the 8th Amendment, and by the way it has to be Cruel AND Unusual to be considered a violation, not just cruel or unusual.
And don't get started on religious beliefs because there are about 10,000 cases where the government violates people's "religious beliefs" specifically in medical instances.
Glowin97x

Joined: Mar 13 2004
Posts: 608
Location: Malibu, CA


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Sat Dec 17, 2005 5:29 pm

Rags wrote:
also if the shot were not to kill which is actually possible because of the amount of potassium being injected, the "executed" could legally sue the state for cruel and unusual punishment.


Francis v. Resweber, a convicted murdered was subject to a botched execution, and subsequently argued that a second attempt at execution would be a violation of the Eighth Amendment constituting cruel and unusual punishment. While the Supreme Court rejected this argument, stating that the eighth amendment applies to “cruelty inherent in the method of punishment.”

Here is the case


Please read before making Constitutional claims. thanks
mccook8

Joined: Jun 01 2004
Posts: 744


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Sat Dec 17, 2005 8:33 pm

Oh, damn! I've created a monster by repeatedly hyping findlaw.com!!!!!! icon_lol.gif
Glowin97x

Joined: Mar 13 2004
Posts: 608
Location: Malibu, CA


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Sun Dec 18, 2005 1:03 am

findlaw is my non pay site. I use westlaw at work now that is the **** but it costs 4 bucks a min.
Rags

Joined: Apr 21 2005
Posts: 3527
Location: dayton


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Sun Dec 18, 2005 3:42 pm

you dont get what i am saying.

i know needles come presterile. i worked in a damned hospital.

my arguement towards cruel and unusual punishment isnt towards the actual killing.
i mean the method.

the arguement i am stating is that it can be argued cruel and unusual to kill someone with a nonsterile needle
not that it would be killing someone to begin with.

please read and fully understand the text before arguing it.
kthx.
TheBrick

Joined: Oct 07 2003
Posts: 4140
Location: Niagara Falls, Canada


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Sun Dec 18, 2005 4:15 pm

^ Your statement holds no gravity here. You just said they come presterile so why would there even be talk of a nonsterile needle being used. Make points that actually pertain to the subject at hand and maybe you wont get people arguing your points to this degree.
Rags

Joined: Apr 21 2005
Posts: 3527
Location: dayton


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Sun Dec 18, 2005 4:33 pm

jol102001 wrote:
02BlueStang wrote:
jol102001 wrote:
My vote: they should have let him rot in jail.

1) cheaper
2) it would have been worst for him b/c then he would have had time to think about it.... by giving him the needle, he just falls alseep.


I disagree, it is cheaper to kill his ass...I dont want to foot his medical bill, Cable bill, dinner bill, sleeping bill, etc any longer....

If I had my way he would get 1 chance to appeal, then take him out back and hang his ass...problem solved, no overcrowding of prisons and less money spent in taxes and able to go towards schools etc....

Hell, here in Washington the prisoners complained that they "didnt have enough art in the prison and it was against their constitutional rights because they were not able to explore the mind and it intruded on their natural rights to expand learning"....so the county spent 10 MILLION DOLLARS to put up paintings and what not inside the jail...WTF is that icon_mad.gif


no, it really is cheaper to keep them there for life. It cost millions to kill one person b/c 'the needle has to be sterile' icon_rolleyes.gif and **** like that.


i then said
Quote:
actually considering the facts a clean needle is needed in case the person executed donates blood or organs. its a shot of potassium, good for stoping blood to your brain, but not for killing livers. also if the shot were not to kill which is actually possible because of the amount of potassium being injected, the "executed" could legally sue the state for cruel and unusual punishment.
the clean needle factor is based on religion and cruel and unusual punishment clauses. from what i have heard. if that makes any sense.


Glowin97x then said
Quote:
Not true on the suing for cruel and unusual punishment see Gregg v. Georgia.
U.S. Supreme Court 1976.


gregg v. georgia ~ http://www.oyez.org/oyez/resource/case/469/
Quote:
No. In a 7-to-2 decision, the Court held that a punishment of death did not violate the Eighth and Fourteenth Amendments under all circumstances. In extreme criminal cases, such as when a defendant has been convicted of deliberately killing another, the careful and judicious use of the death penalty may be appropriate if carefully employed. Georgia's death penalty statute assures the judicious and careful use of the death penalty by requiring a bifurcated proceeding where the trial and sentencing are conducted separately, specific jury findings as to the severity of the crime and the nature of the defendant, and a comparison of each capital sentence's circumstances with other similar cases. Moreover, the Court was not prepared to overrule the Georgia legislature's finding that capital punishment serves as a useful deterrent to future capital crimes and an appropriate means of social retribution against its most serious offenders.


this is a case stating capital punishment is not cruel and unusual.
i originally stated that using a nonsterile needle is cruel and unusual.
this case is irrelevent.

i never brought up the non sterile needle factor, i just originally stated reasons in which a sterile needle is used.

these facts were argued with an irrelevent case to the cruel and unusual statement.

the case FRANCIS v. RESWEBER was brought up rising the factor of a second execution. the reason was because the electric chair malfunctioned on the first attempt. he was not inflicted on by a nonsterile needle which is where this entire arguement is placed.

i continue to stand on my original point which has been brought up and argued against by 2 irrelevent cases.

again.
i state; it could be argued cruel and unusual by the constition, to inflict capital punishment on a person with a nonsterile needle

Quote:
^ Your statement holds no gravity here. You just said they come presterile so why would there even be talk of a nonsterile needle being used. Make points that actually pertain to the subject at hand and maybe you wont get people arguing your points to this degree.


the gravity has just been stated, so has the situation. i am only defending my original statement. and until i am proven wrong i wont change my mind on it.

and if you say "oh thats what you meant"
reread all that i typed earlier.
i have just now repeated myself 4 times.
TheBrick

Joined: Oct 07 2003
Posts: 4140
Location: Niagara Falls, Canada


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Sun Dec 18, 2005 4:38 pm

regardless if they want to argue it or not it isnt going to change anything. All the people that have died deserved it and they are dead. Why argue about the dead?
Rags

Joined: Apr 21 2005
Posts: 3527
Location: dayton


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Sun Dec 18, 2005 4:42 pm

the only thing i am saying is that the method in which they die can be argued cruel and unusual. its why we dont just shoot people. we use capital punishment as "humanely" as we can. if we use needles that have aids and **** on it, or are not sterile, it can be argued inhumane methods of death which would then become cruel and unusual.
02BlueStang

Joined: Dec 13 2004
Posts: 4757


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Sun Dec 18, 2005 7:12 pm

Rags wrote:
you dont get what i am saying.

i know needles come presterile. i worked in a damned hospital.

my arguement towards cruel and unusual punishment isnt towards the actual killing.
i mean the method.

the arguement i am stating is that it can be argued cruel and unusual to kill someone with a nonsterile needle
not that it would be killing someone to begin with.

please read and fully understand the text before arguing it.
kthx.


from my reading and understanding of your thinking...please correct me if I am wrong....

but from my thinking of how you claim what is cruel and unusual or not would portray to every type of death a person could have under any circumstance....

you claim that its the possibility that it could be a dirty needle that would make it a cruel and unusual punishment....but couldnt ANY situation that develops where someone dies be considered cruel and unusual, because in the end there really is nothing pretty about death....and there could always be a possible way for someone to think of it as cruel and unusual punishment....causing a prisoner to sit in prison before his execution could be considered cruel and unusual...asking him/her what they want to eat for their last meal could be cruel and unusual....

Do you see what I'm getting at or trying to make as a point? Anything could be considered cruel and unusual, it just comes down to how individuals think of the event as whether or not it is cruel and unusual to them...this is where Society will never agree simply because the human mind and human emotions are so different from individual to individual that there can be no middle ground on the issue....That is where our political and justice system comes in...and for now, they say it Is Not cruel and unusual punishment to sentence people to death....
Glowin97x

Joined: Mar 13 2004
Posts: 608
Location: Malibu, CA


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Sun Dec 18, 2005 10:03 pm

My second post arguing Francis v. Resweber WAS A DIRECT argument against your statement AND I QUOTE!
"Rags wrote:
also if the shot were not to kill which is actually possible because of the amount of potassium being injected, the "executed" could legally sue the state for cruel and unusual punishment. "

THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT RESWEBER ARGUES AGAINST

<B> NOT </B> your nonsensical dirty needle argument which i dont think I need to even touch upon. So maybe YOU should read your own writing because you are misconstruing both what you origionally said in the above quoted post AND my answer

*edited for HTML
Rags

Joined: Apr 21 2005
Posts: 3527
Location: dayton


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:50 pm

02BlueStang wrote:
Rags wrote:
you dont get what i am saying.

i know needles come presterile. i worked in a damned hospital.

my arguement towards cruel and unusual punishment isnt towards the actual killing.
i mean the method.

the arguement i am stating is that it can be argued cruel and unusual to kill someone with a nonsterile needle
not that it would be killing someone to begin with.

please read and fully understand the text before arguing it.
kthx.


from my reading and understanding of your thinking...please correct me if I am wrong....

but from my thinking of how you claim what is cruel and unusual or not would portray to every type of death a person could have under any circumstance....

you claim that its the possibility that it could be a dirty needle that would make it a cruel and unusual punishment....but couldnt ANY situation that develops where someone dies be considered cruel and unusual, because in the end there really is nothing pretty about death....and there could always be a possible way for someone to think of it as cruel and unusual punishment....causing a prisoner to sit in prison before his execution could be considered cruel and unusual...asking him/her what they want to eat for their last meal could be cruel and unusual....

Do you see what I'm getting at or trying to make as a point? Anything could be considered cruel and unusual, it just comes down to how individuals think of the event as whether or not it is cruel and unusual to them...this is where Society will never agree simply because the human mind and human emotions are so different from individual to individual that there can be no middle ground on the issue....That is where our political and justice system comes in...and for now, they say it Is Not cruel and unusual punishment to sentence people to death....


i am not arguing that death is cruel and unusual. the fact that dirty needles are being used just takes away from the humanity factor. which would make the death inhumane; which then can be argued cruel and unusual.



Quote:
My second post arguing Francis v. Resweber WAS A DIRECT argument against your statement AND I QUOTE!
"Rags wrote:
also if the shot were not to kill which is actually possible because of the amount of potassium being injected, the "executed" could legally sue the state for cruel and unusual punishment. "

THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT RESWEBER ARGUES AGAINST

<B> NOT </B> your nonsensical dirty needle argument which i dont think I need to even touch upon. So maybe YOU should read your own writing because you are misconstruing both what you origionally said in the above quoted post AND my answer


that quote was in the situation that a dirty needle were used, if an injection were to not kill a person however they got aids from it, is that not cruel and unusual?


again.
i state my arguement; it could be argued cruel and unusual to use capital punishment on a person with a dirty needle.

i honestly dont think anyone is fully reccognizing what i am saying.
TheBrick

Joined: Oct 07 2003
Posts: 4140
Location: Niagara Falls, Canada


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:56 pm

we are but what the **** difference does it make? They are dead either way. I can see your point if the injection is not intended to kill then fine argue all you want. But if they are going to die from the needle regardless if its dirty or not, I dont think there is going to be a good arguement.
Rags

Joined: Apr 21 2005
Posts: 3527
Location: dayton


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Mon Dec 19, 2005 4:07 pm

but in our constitution we have the 8th amendment, which is against cruel and unusual punishment.
it can take a person hours or minutes or seconds to die. but if a person were to suffer severely from the death thats cruel and unusual, in which someone can sue someone else.
i mean someone sued mcdonalds because the coffee was too hot.

anyways this is a website all about lethal injections
http://www.richard.clark32.btinternet.co.uk/injection.html

basically its designed to be the most humane way to kill someone.
and a dirty needle takes away from the humanity factor if it has aids or something on it.

on another note, if the needles are dirty it can cause the veins to contract and one might rupture during the procedure. this would induce alot of pain and become a botched execution. i think that if it would be cruel and unusual for an armed robber to be told he will take lethal injection, then a few years later he gets it but first needs to be injected a few times because one of his veins popped and his whole right arm can be used to be injected.
mccook8

Joined: Jun 01 2004
Posts: 744


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Mon Dec 19, 2005 4:39 pm

Rags wrote:

on another note, if the needles are dirty it can cause the veins to contract and one might rupture during the procedure. this would induce alot of pain and become a botched execution. i think that if it would be cruel and unusual for an armed robber to be told he will take lethal injection, then a few years later he gets it but first needs to be injected a few times because one of his veins popped and his whole right arm can be used to be injected.


...all the more reason to bring back the guillotine......
Rags

Joined: Apr 21 2005
Posts: 3527
Location: dayton


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:18 pm

if it wasnt for how gross it would be i would say go for it.
its quick but probably not humane, again making it possible for cruel and unusual if all the sudden someone was killed that way. idk tho.
02BlueStang

Joined: Dec 13 2004
Posts: 4757


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:38 am

most murders/killings are not pleasant....in fact, im willing to bet that if you could ask every person who died whether it was pleasant or not they would probably say that it was not....

with that being said, whether the person dies from the needle being dirty or dies from what is injected while the needle is in there arm should not matter....In capitol punishment cases the people being executed do not deserve the right to say what is right and what is wrong.....in most cases they have taken something that they had no right to take and must face the consequences of their actions, death, whichever way they might get it...
GlowinPontiac

Joined: Mar 04 2004
Posts: 5959
Location: Central CT


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:37 pm

the firing squad needs to be brought back. or hanging.
Its not right that these people mutilate and torture people to death and then when they are executed for there crimes they get to die painlessly in there sleep.
mccook8

Joined: Jun 01 2004
Posts: 744


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:38 am

GlowinPontiac wrote:
Its not right that these people mutilate and torture people to death and then when they are executed for there crimes they get to die painlessly in there sleep.


That's because you're thinking of it as PUNISHMENT.

If you see it as PROPHYLAXIS, it doesn't matter how they die, just as long as they do.......
02BlueStang

Joined: Dec 13 2004
Posts: 4757


Are you sure you want to delete this post?
  
Post Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:16 am

mccook8 wrote:
it doesn't matter how they die, just as long as they do.......


amen Owen
The time now is Tue May 22, 2018 6:45 am
Page 1 of 1