OK! Lets rewire!!

Ok. I know i have a quality set up. I have quality parts and the correct power going to it all. But it just isn't performing the way it should I think.

My current set up consists of

Jenson VM9510 Indash tv
2 x JL Audio 12w3v3s
1 x Alpine PDX 1.600 Amplifier
4 AWG Kicker wiring for everything
Custom made sealed box(I just bought some mdf board and built it to what I believe is the proper specs) to fit my trunk
High output alt(140 compared to 80 stock)
Optima Yellow top Battery


I have a great ground and the subs def are being pushed fine. Nothing "wrong" per say. But it just doesn't seem as loud as they should. I went into an VERY good REPUTABLE audio shop in Madison. Probably the best shop around. And he is the one that sold me this Alpine amp. Saying it will power them great, not over power them.

After reading the thread for the other guy and you guys recommending the w3 AND the amp that I just so happen to have my question is this. Why is this set up not MUCH louder? You guys are saying just ONE sub should pound damn hard. I am getting beat by guys with smaller systems. I know my way around audio. I am no newb for sure. I am thinking my fall back is my box. Should I run a ported box. I know ported boxes make for a louder bump but the sound usually isn't as clean. Which I love how clean my sound is. But I could deal with it if I get a lot more bass.

Obviously this is in my neon. And with me not having air anymore(can't afford to rebag) I am available to redo my set up over the winter. I would like to build a box as buying one is way to expensive. And I now have my whole trunk as compared to before. What are the best options? Any sites that show me the best box setups with dimensions?

This is my current set up. The tank is no longer there. I have the whole trunk open now. The back of the box is all the way against the trunk. Leaving little gap in between. I can take pics of it tonight.



All you audiophiles out there let me know what you think.

What are the current specs on your box? Do you happen to know the T/S parameters of the sub, should be provided w/ sub literature (if not I could most likely look them up online)?

I will check tonight. I have no idea what the t/s parameters even are. I have the paperwork at home I think.

Last time I looked JL has it all on the website if you can't find the paperwork.

If it's not the box, do u think it's how the HU splits the frequency? Set it to 80hz if possible so it'll send anything below 80 to the rear. Good luck. Worst comes to worst, u can have a store tune it, it's not like ur getting an install so it can't be too much bank. Just use a song ur very familiar with.

BTW good call with the w3s. Many say JL is over rated, but they can handle WAY more power than advertised. On top of that, the bass is so crisp and tight. I can't imagine having anything other than my JL. Plus the PDXs are so efficient. The 4.150 gets no where near as hot as my MTX (400w RMS @ 12v).

I will look into it and play with my system. I am redoing all my wiring so it is all apart right now. So i figured now would be the prime time to rebuild a box if people thought that was my downfall.

Thanks for the info. I will see what that does when I get it hooked up again.

And yes I LOVE my JLs. And LOVE this amp. Such a great amp in such a small package.

kornholio788 wrote:

I will look into it and play with my system. I am redoing all my wiring so it is all apart right now. So i figured now would be the prime time to rebuild a box if people thought that was my downfall. Thanks for the info. I will see what that does when I get it hooked up again. And yes I LOVE my JLs. And LOVE this amp. Such a great amp in such a small package.

Not that it matters, but looks-wise the PDXs=sexy right?

kornholio788 wrote:

I will check tonight. I have no idea what the t/s parameters even are. I have the paperwork at home I think.

T/S (Thiele/Small) parameters are basically the parameters that tell you how a speaker is going to sound. It allows you to model them. When I worked at Harman, I actually talked and worked w/ Dr. Small (Richard Small but he was British I believe and went by **** ). Also, let me know what size box you're using so I can determine the volume.

PwrRngr wrote:

kornholio788 wrote: I will check tonight. I have no idea what the t/s parameters even are. I have the paperwork at home I think. T/S (Thiele/Small) parameters are basically the parameters that tell you how a speaker is going to sound. It allows you to model them. When I worked at Harman, I actually talked and worked w/ Dr. Small (Richard Small but he was British I believe and went by **** ). Also, let me know what size box you're using so I can determine the volume.

Yes, but changing the box is the last resort. For all we know, it could be a frequency separation issue that could be fixed with a few buttons on the HU. Also could be the amp levels. The possibilities...

Dimensions are 11.5 x 34 x 16

If it comes down to building a new box so be it. A sheet of wood isn't really all that expensive. And I have all the saws/tools to make a great box like this one is. I am kind of thinking of doing a port. As Akens set up was ported. And used 1 sub. Now it was a really nice sub and amp but good lord did it put my set up to shame. And I think the port is what gave him a huge edge.

Explanation of different boxes

Might help?

Most of that I knew. But definitely learned some stuff still that could be very useful. Thanks!

port your trunk.

Drill holes in the top of your ...trunk into your cab.

Make a ported box, youll love the difference

I took the 6x9's out of the rear deck of my BMW which added two airways from the trunk to the cabin, and if I didn't have people in the back seat I lowered the seat back.

Both made a HUGE difference.

I'm going to guess you have 2 problems. Problem #1 is 1 of those amps is great for one of those subs.... not 2 of those subs. The output of that amp is rated at 600W RMS at 14.4v. In reality, you are probably running at around 12.4v and thus around 500w total output. Split between the 2 subs, you're at 250w each. Those subs are rated for up to 500W each, and those particular subs are power hungry and take a LOT to push them.

Second, I'm going to guess you don't have them wired appropriately. Which version of the subs do you have? 12W3v3's have 3 version.. 2 ohm, 4 ohm, and 8 ohm. How do you have them wired? Series or parallel? Describe exactly how they are hooked up. Are both subs sharing the same air space, or is their a divider inside of the box seperating the air chambers? I bet you have one of the subs wired out of phase, combined with the fact that the amp isn't designed to power 2 subs.

Also, what are the dimensions of your box? If it's home made, what materials did you use to make it with, and what thickness?

hey korn
(i would try these in order)

i agree you probably have them wired improperly to the amp.
try wiring them in parallel first

and by your dimensions. your box is 3.463 cubic SF and you they only need 1 - 1.5 cubic square feet per sub, theres too much air in that for a sealed box

and those subs are power hungry.
i would recommend getting another amp to power each or just a larger one for both if you just want one.

Hrm. Damn I would want another one of those amps. But **** they are like 300 bucks. OK I will get all this info figured out. And let you guys know. Sounds like I have some big issues to work out. Thanks alot guys.

Keep the info comming if you have any.

yea but i really think its how they are wired to your amp or your box though bro

Mav wrote:

I'm going to guess you have 2 problems. Problem #1 is 1 of those amps is great for one of those subs.... not 2 of those subs. The output of that amp is rated at 600W RMS at 14.4v. In reality, you are probably running at around 12.4v and thus around 500w total output. Split between the 2 subs, you're at 250w each. Those subs are rated for up to 500W each, and those particular subs are power hungry and take a LOT to push them.

I respectfully disagree here. True, he's not using them to maximum potential but he should be getting some punch out of them. With two of them hooked to the amp, he should be getting more punch than a single one (assuming he can match the same impedance). Here's the reason.

With one, you're pushing 500W to it. But, since it's a sealed box, the more power you add, the more power is wasted and not turned into sound (you start pumping more power into the woofer for minimum acoustic gains, law of diminishing returns). With two subs, he can deliver 250W to each one and not waste as much power. Essentially, he has a more efficient system with two subs.

Mad Eyes, the only reason I was looking at the box was b/c it's the easiest to determine if it's good or not. I can look at the size and the T/S parameters and make a judgment from there. To determine if it's something on the HU takes more digging and troubleshooting. If I can eliminate the box, it's one less thing to look at. It would be easiest if it was just something on the HU. I just wanted to see if the box was a blatant problem or not.

i say get a real head unit. go for pioneer or alpine, you cant lose with either as long as you spend 200ish or more. its the brain and main part of your system, why skimp there... i recently went from a sealed box to a ported box and love the difference, its just better.
but the easiest thing to do it check to make sure all the filters on both the deck and amp are set correctly.

i have the lower end Indash jensen compared to his and my system still works.

i have the same^^^ and mine thumps, i got a detention cause the teacher felt like it was her need to punish me for loud music ...i bugged her through the whole thing, it was supposed to be 30 min long i got out in like 13 min.

My initial thought was that the subs were under powered, but I couldn't find anything on the subs after a quick search at work, plus I don't consider myself an expert in this area.

Korn id just suggest porting your trunk to your cab. Drill holes or like Tony said, take out your rear deck speakers to allow are to pass between the two.

It worked WONDERS in my brothers protege, with the JL's i use to have.

I was debating on taking those speakers out but was afraid it would sound like ****.

Quote:

i say get a real head unit. go for pioneer or alpine, you cant lose with either as long as you spend 200ish or more. its the brain and main part of your system, why skimp there...

Ugh. Some people. Sorry but that statement couldn't be more false. yes it is not the best out there. But just because it isn't name brand doesn't mean it won't work right.

I have stock ****!!!!

I have seen that HU in action though it works great. I can attest to it

Tdawgthegreatest wrote:

Korn id just suggest porting your trunk to your cab. Drill holes or like Tony said, take out your rear deck speakers to allow are to pass between the two. It worked WONDERS in my brothers protege, with the JL's i use to have.

How simple would something like this be? Gunna have to build a new box I am guessing?


OH and BTW they are wired in series. I just got both subs wires going pos and pos and neg and neg going to the same "wire outlet" thing. Then the amp is "bridged" to that one "outlet"

kornholio788 wrote:

Tdawgthegreatest wrote: Korn id just suggest porting your trunk to your cab. Drill holes or like Tony said, take out your rear deck speakers to allow are to pass between the two. It worked WONDERS in my brothers protege, with the JL's i use to have. How simple would something like this be? Gunna have to build a new box I am guessing? OH and BTW they are wired in series. I just got both subs wires going pos and pos and neg and neg going to the same "wire outlet" thing. Then the amp is "bridged" to that one "outlet"

Resistance?

kornholio788 wrote:

How simple would something like this be? Gunna have to build a new box I am guessing?

Easy, take a whole saw-bit thingy. That makes holes with a drill? Yes?

Drill 2 holes. and viola. Ported cab/trunk

thats all we did to his car, and it was a night and day difference, you WILL NOT have to build a new box. As far as i can tell, when you have a sub (non ported) system in your trunk. Your suffocating it for air. Or it doesnt have enough air to move. Like in my truck, my subs sound like **** when my windows are rolled up. But when you roll the windows DOWN they are marvelous. So with you drilling the holes, it like me rolling down my windows.

Tdawgthegreatest wrote:

Easy, take a whole saw-bit thingy. That makes holes with a drill? Yes? Drill 2 holes. and viola. ghetto rigged bandpass box

Fixed it for your.
If you're going to do that, make a new box (ported or bandpass) and make actual ports into the cab. Yeah you'll get sound w/ drilling holes but it will be crappy sound (but it'll be loud ). If you're going to have subs, at least have them designed to sound decent instead of just making loud noises.

You have a ~2.75 cubic foot box for 2 subs so it shouldn't be the box. I think you have something wrong on the amp, HU, or sub wiring.

Hrm ok.

I am def thinking a ported box with ports facing the cabin is in order.

Also I am going to look into maby getting another amp. But that is far down the road. I would like to run 1 for now until I run into more cash.

Does my wiring sound good still or no? I have no idea what ohms subs they are. I would have to hope that the boxes are still at home. When I take the subs out to build a new box here soon I will check.

This is sorta like my wiring. It is a 2 channel amp that I have "bridged" I think correctly. But from what it sounds my subs are not.

This is like mine except I don't have any pos to negs going on. It is just both powers and both negatives going to the pos on the amp and neg on the amp.

That amp is not 2 channels. It's a 1 channel mono. There's probably one of your problems. The pic you just showed there is of a DVC sub as well, but the subs you have are not DVC. As for the ohm rating, it should be listed right on the sub itself. I wouldn't be too hasty about building a new box yet. I still think it's wiring. Your Positive and Negative should both come out of the same output on that amp. That amp has some of it's own special impedance matching technology, so that may be causing your problem if you're pulling the positive off of one terminal and the negative off the other pair of outputs. The positive and negative you are using should come off of one side of that amp and go directly to 1 sub. Then the other positive and negative terminal should go to the other sub. They'd still be wired parallel, but using the amps terminals for it rather than the way you are doing it now. Also, you may have one sub reversed on the terminals causing phase cancelation (one sub pushes out while the other sub pulls in). The sub's model will tell you the ohm rating. 12W3v3-2 is 2 ohm, -4 is 4 ohm and -8 is 8ohm.

Duh. Ya you are right. I was thinking of my old amp. There is only one channel. Only one set of positive and negative.

And yes I know but that was the best pic I could find.


Bot positives from the subs are connected and running to the pos amp connection. Negatives are connected and running towards the negative obviously. I will pull one of the subs out today and take a look at it. Then make sure none of my wires are crossed.

You have been alot of help on this subject so far guys! I VERY much appriciate it. I want some loud as woofers!

Sub woofers are 8 ohm(sp)

How exactly should I wire those badboys up?

This is my current set up



It looks like my wiring is correct. With 2 8 ohm speakers that brings it to 4 ohms. The amplifier is a 4 ohm amp. So maby it is my box.

amp specs wrote:

mono subwoofer amplifier 600 watts RMS x 1 at 4 ohms (600 watts RMS x 1 at 2 ohms) CEA-2006 compliant stackable installation design with front-panel controls variable low-pass filter (50-200 Hz, 24 dB/octave) switchable subsonic filter (15 or 30 HZ)

And I am 100 percent that I don't have the wires mixed up going from teh amp to the subs causing one to "counter" act with teh other. As I used JL audio wire which uses wire that has "+" and "-" signs along the whole wire. So I made sure it was good. Also the imputs uses a black and red wire so there is no mix up there.

Also my box has a brace in the middle but has cut outs so the subs share the same air space. I do have my subs wired the exact way it is in the picture. But obviously not a JL amp. I am using the Alpine PDX. Getting another map while nice is sorta out of budget.
So ported box into the cabin?