I want to apologize to every citizen of the USA...

...for voting & electing this guy. I can't believe I once thought that Government health insurance would be good a thing.

LETS KEEP THIS DISCUSSION ON TOPIC! It's a hot topic right now, and I think it'll bring good discussion.

Honestly I'm just waiting to see how it turns out... Lots of people are saying its bad, some are saying it'll work... Nothing I can do but wait and see.

Im with you guthix!

I honestly think there should be a health reform and I honestly think for people to take advantage of it they need to at least be healthy or have healthy traits...

My family has always been 'plus' size guys but I hold a irm 200-215 weight because i workout every day... hell even when i couldn't move i was working out my arms ;/



I want to wait and see I don't cast judgment on something that could be for the better...

Honestly I think the lottery or scholastic is retarded... I see nothing getting better for children ;/

Here's a nicely written article about the downsides.

http://www.kvsun.com/articles/2009/08/18/opinion/editorials/doc4a8af492ac6cb860601349.txt

And supposedly the wait times to receive treatment with universal health care are really really really bad. Time is usually of the essence when it comes to illnesses and injuries.

I'm glad you recognized your mistake! The heath reform that is being purposed would just suuuuck! Quality of care would plummet and waiting lists would grow.

I can't believe people are going so far off the deep end with the opposition to the public option . Its like people aren't really focusing on the facts of the issue and instead its become a trigger point for every undercurrent of fear, intolerance, and opposition to change . Now its all boiling to the surface and people are getting super emotional and upset about how America is being taken over by nazi's who will take our guns and make us stand in bread lines while they kill our babies .
A public option does not a nazi or socialist state make; it doesn't dissolve nations and bankrupt economies . Its going to be ok . Change is life .

LOL

Obamians are all idiots, free healthcare for all is a **** joke. Get a job that offers healthcare, or pay your own way cause I am not supporting your broke asses.

I don't understand how you can judge a person this soon into his term.

From the way it seems to me right, now, you are kinda like a bandwagoner. When everything is going good you liked him, now, he has done one thing you don't like and you completely dislike him.

No, it's not just one thing. What happened to all those promises, about the stimulus check - the one for 700 billion or whatever.

"Our department of treasury will keep track of everything, and whom all the money goes out to" - blah blah blah. Was doing research yesterday, and the money has already been distributed, and the "tracking" of the money is "still under construction".

Another thing...the other day, at a gas station - went in, bought a monster energy drink, a pack of gum, and paid for my gas. There is a chain of gas stations called "UDF", or "United Dairy Farmers". While waiting to pay, this ****** ***** is buying two ice cream cones. Cashier rings her up, and she PAYS WITH THE **** ICE CREAM WITH HER FOOD STAMP card. It's all making sense now - she isn't paying for that ice cream, ME AND OTHER tax payers paid for that ice cream - and obama is all about passing food stamps & welfare around like a joint at woodstock.

Whether you think I'm on the band wagon or not, I realized a lot of things in the past few months. His approval rating at the time of inauguration was around 69%, and now - it's in the 40% range. What about those ~19% of people?

Carry on.

alright here goes.

Healthcare reform is retarded. didn't work in canada, or the u.k., or anywhere else so it sure as hell won't work in the u.s.

the government bankrupted social security, medicare and the atrocious snail mail.

they can't run anything correctly.


Also giving healthcare to illegals is ****, go to mexico if you want healthcare.


social security to ppl who never paid a dime into it is also ****, thats -100% profit.


we should be more like mexico. If you dont work then you die. get off your sorry lazy ass or suffer the consequences.


WE SHOULD ALSO END WELFARE TOTALLY. Or limit it down much farther greatly.


and stop giving my **** money to foriengers in grants to take our businesses over and ruin them.

blah blah blah blah blah

One thing I hear is how bad the US life expectancy is. But this is very misleading. The US life expectancy also includes people killed in car accidents and homicides. Once you factor out those two things, the US is #1 in life expectancy. So basically, we're more likely to kill each other.

Here's a good read for anyone that's actually interested in the issue.
http://repository.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi...2&context=psc_working_papers

Like A-Ray said, it hasn't even been a year yet. Everybody exspects(how the **** do you spell this word?) this dude to accomplish everything IMEDIATELY!!!

I don't vote or give a **** about politics, but I like this dude. Give the guy a break he has a long way to go.

thatguy wrote:

Like A-Ray said, it hasn't even been a year yet. Everybody exspects(how the **** do you spell this word?) this dude to accomplish everything IMEDIATELY!!! I don't vote or give a **** about politics, but I like this dude. Give the guy a break he has a long way to go.

He hasn't been in for too long but has already managed to break MANY promises that he made. So he hasn't don what he promised but he has done what he promised he wouldn't do. That's why people aren't so happy.

There's some I agree with, some I disagree with - I'd agree that reform in general is needed for health care, but not necessarily the reform that is currently on the table.

As for things like food stamps, welfare, unemployment....again, divided. I can understand why some people may need them, and I think they should be helped, but there should be more restrictions that go along with it - food stamps that are only good for basic food, welfare that can only be used for rent, that sort of thing - but, I have no idea how to realistically implement any of it...

PwrRngr wrote:

thatguy wrote: Like A-Ray said, it hasn't even been a year yet. Everybody exspects(how the **** do you spell this word?) this dude to accomplish everything IMEDIATELY!!! I don't vote or give a **** about politics, but I like this dude. Give the guy a break he has a long way to go. He hasn't been in for too long but has already managed to break MANY promises that he made. So he hasn't don what he promised but he has done what he promised he wouldn't do. That's why people aren't so happy.

I see.

He approved the whole cash for clunkers program right?

I don't really know what's going on with this whole healthcare thing. All I see is a bunch of old people ***** and complaining on the news. It looks like they want free ****.

i completely agree with the guy on top. there goes to waste all your tax money. you know how to spend your money the best, not the government. and you wanna know something, its completely **** because now the government is going to selectively pick who should receive healthcare and who shouldnt.

coolbam wrote:

Healthcare reform is retarded. didn't work in canada, or the u.k., or anywhere else so it sure as hell won't work in the u.s.

Didn't work? I live in Canada. Has worked pretty well for me. Infact there was a major uprising in Alberta (the province I live in) when the government tried to propose going to a private system.

While heavily biased, Michael Moore's SICKO made some very good points.

Mikerosoft wrote:

coolbam wrote: Healthcare reform is retarded. didn't work in canada, or the u.k., or anywhere else so it sure as hell won't work in the u.s. Didn't work? I live in Canada. Has worked pretty well for me. Infact there was a major uprising in Alberta (the province I live in) when the government tried to propose going to a private system. While heavily biased, Michael Moore's SICKO made some very good points.

If it's so great, why are so many Canadians coming to the US to use our system?

Go hit your bong

:]o=========={

The Brits have warned us against it as well.

Kevin_S wrote:

Go hit your bong

I plan on it.

^^ That does not surprise me

pOrk wrote:

LOL Obamians are all idiots, free healthcare for all is a **** joke. Get a job that offers healthcare, or pay your own way cause I am not supporting your broke asses.

Totally agree with this statement. Everything else is ****. Either work or get the **** out.

PwrRngr wrote:

Mikerosoft wrote: coolbam wrote: Healthcare reform is retarded. didn't work in canada, or the u.k., or anywhere else so it sure as hell won't work in the u.s. Didn't work? I live in Canada. Has worked pretty well for me. Infact there was a major uprising in Alberta (the province I live in) when the government tried to propose going to a private system. While heavily biased, Michael Moore's SICKO made some very good points. If it's so great, why are so many Canadians coming to the US to use our system?

Thats why the canadian doctors say its going to implode.

It isn't working.

I see the healthcare reform issue as just a small part of a much larger problem that the American people have been ignoring for quite some time. What happened to the idea of States' Rights? When drafting the Constitution, it was never the fore-fathers intention that the federal government would oversee every aspect of the American peoples' lives. And honestly, there is no reason for it to do so. Who is better suited to decide whether healthcare for you and your neighbors should be controlled by the government? Your local city council, state congress, or the President of the United States? See, every part of the country has a different demographic of people, hence the term "Melting Pot." It is absolutely impossible for anyone at the federal level to pass legislation that is 100% right for the entirety of the American people. This is why I believe that more power should be given to the states. They know YOU, the individual citizen, far better than anyone in D.C., and therefore can do a much better job at improving the world that YOU and your neighbors live in. Don't get me wrong, however, a strong federal government is important. I believe its roll is to protect the inalienable rights of the people when states do not, provide for cohesive communication among the states, and handle any and all foreign diplomacy. Obama, his successors, congress, and the supreme court all need to take about a dozen steps back. It seems like they're trying to coach from over top the QB's shoulder, rather than the sidelines where they belong.

Lets see, the government failed at running a 3 billion dollar "CARS" program. 3-5% of the money has been distributed to the dealers, thus many small dealers pulling out of the whole thing.

If the government cant run a measly 3 billion dollar program, how are they going to run one that is multiple billions of dollars?

Plus it just sucks. There is no "Free healthcare". Its increases in tax, the same way the lazy ass **** on welfare get it...

Its nothing but medicare for everyone.

**** this Obama tard.

pOrk wrote:

I am not supporting your broke asses.

I feel the same way, but more towards EBT, I think not only your income should be looked at, they need to evaluate the person as well. Look at there car and there cloths, and make them come in every 6 weeks for a drug test. Im tired of seeing these people buying name brand foods and loading them into there souped up cars while talking on there blue tooth thats linked to there brand new Iphone. Nothing ****'s me off more then food stamps and how the system is abused and no on seems to care. I gotta buy there groceries because they spent there money on updating there wardrobe then buying groceries.

As for free healthcare, too many factors to really think it would work in the long run. But I pay for mine so I would not be affected by it.

Gee......the government has heavily regulated the health care industry, the courts have allowed all sorts of frivolous lawsuits, and now health insurance and health care itself are prohibitively expensive to some?

So, what, exactly, should we do about it?

"More of the same, STAT!!!!"

I think not.

Want to REALLY reform health care? Remove the obstacles, the red tape. Deregulate, and convert the civil tort system to "loser pays".

But, the "public option"? That's just more ****, and it's neither entirely public, nor optional.

And, SWI......you're NOT sorry.........but well before January 20th, 2013 rolls around, you WILL BE.

I think its a horrible idea.
Its not working out well for Canada and no one else.
If people are already not willing to get a job and they sit on their ass all day with welfare whats gonna change when suddenly we are all paying their medical bills

http://www.theonion.com/content/video/obama_dra...cales_back?utm_source=videoembed

A-Ray wrote:

I don't understand how you can judge a person this soon into his term. From the way it seems to me right, now, you are kinda like a bandwagoner. When everything is going good you liked him, now, he has done one thing you don't like and you completely dislike him.

Are you **** me? He has spent more money in his first 3 months in office then that **** tard Bush did in 8 god damn years. Guess what? We are trillions in debt, and printing more money IS NOT THE ANSWER>. Easy to judge a book by the cover when its made out of glass

SickWitIt wrote:

His approval rating at the time of inauguration was around 69%, and now - it's in the 40% range. What about those ~19% of people? Carry on.

I am not a mathematical genius but....

I think we should take control of the white house and put these united states back in order.

pOrk wrote:

LOL Obamians are all idiots, free healthcare for all is a **** joke. Get a job that offers healthcare, or pay your own way cause I am not supporting your broke asses.

do you really think poor people can't walk into an ER and get treatment like everyone else? Except they don't pay a dime, it comes out of your tax dollars.

Wait times for regular procedures will probably be longer; wait times for emergency procedures and treatment will not change.

Thinking people will get rejected from a government system is hilarious IMO....what do you think the insurance companies already do? They reject people who need life saving procedures if there is not enough "studies" and "proven" benefits to the procedure.

I think there are possitves and negatives to both....but should insurance companies decide what procedures you get and which ones you don't...no, and I don't think government should either.

And it shouldn't cost me 14K for 3 days in the hospital for a staph infection.....and that was just emergency fees and room fees...doctors and private physician were seperate bills....

Our healthcare system is setup to make insurance companies rich and those that run them even richer...its a joke. But I don't think people who choose not to work should benefit from a system that relies on those willing to work to take care of Octomom's 1000 children because she can't keep her legs closed. But someone who works all their life and does the right thing should not be forced to look into bankruptcy because they have an accident and couldn't afford good insurance.

I think we can all agree that nobody wants to live in a country where the government (any level) regulates all aspects of their life . We all want to maintain and exercise personal freedoms and we want individual choices to allow a free market to keep the wheels of the economy turning and cater to our demands as consumers .
But I think most of us would also agree that its not feasible or desirable to have a completely transparent governance that allows a completely unrestricted market to fill all our needs as citizens . There are certain things that are commonly considered too fundamental to remain unregulated and in private hands . For instance, if my house is on fire and I call 911 for a fire department response, the city fire engines show up to help me out . Its a service we all pay for with our taxes, and maybe they put out my house without billing me, so I essentially get a free service, but you've paid just as many taxes to fund fire houses as I have and you've never had a house fire . So in that respect, I'm scoring and you're getting ripped off by being taxed for fire services . But its a commonly accepted practice nationwide and its one of these services that we as a public have decided is too essential to leave in the market . Its something basic, something fundamental . Something that, just like life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, we all have a right to .

So its beyond dispute that some things are in the category of non-essential services (cable tv, internet access, vehicle ownership, air conditioning) and some things enjoy the support of government programs because they're considered to be a fundamental service or right of each individual (food (ala food stamps), police protection, military protection, the provision of a lawyer for defense) .
The question seems to be what column people want to put health care into . Is it something that the market and the means of the individual consumer should determine the availability of, or is it something that should be provided universally and through the shared-cost system of taxes .

I know it seems like I'm always the crazy hippy liberal in these discussions, but for me I can't think of any right more fundamental than the right to health and life . When we learned about the Declaration of Independence we read that it was declared against the monarchy as an inalienable right, self-evident, and applicable to all men that we should first have the right to live . We're the richest and most powerful nation in the world; we can send millions or billions in foreign aid, we can maintain a standing military force of unrivaled ability, but we can't provide for our fellow countrymen ? Why aren't people outraged by this and why do people think its ok to get behind a "**** 'em if they can't hang" attitude ? How selfish is this ? Who would honestly condemn someone to death because they so abhor the notion of being taxed to cure them ? I truly don't understand how any person of conscience can dispute that this is a right .

I also recognize that any kind of charity is subject to abuse . If you give the dude on the corner a buck there's every chance that he's going to spend it on a 40 instead of a razor to clean himself up and get a job, we know this . We know that people stay on welfare when they could work, and we know people don't spend food stamps on organic whole grain foods . But when did we absolve everyone of their individual responsibilities for abusing the system and start laying the blame soundly around the neck of the government ? I agree that if we're going to provide aid to someone, we should have every right to establish guidelines to its proper use and enforce those guidelines . And in that respect I would support reforms that put these in place . But even recognizing the abuse that takes place, I can't support cessation of the federal provisions for public welfare . There are certain responsibilities that I feel we're obligated to bear as responsible, mindful, and compassionate individuals, and as a nation in whole . And again, to me, the right to life is chief among these responsibilities .

The specifics of what will work financially and politically is beyond my understanding, I'm not an expert in economics or health care . I recognize there are significant challenges to overcome in these areas . But I feel the principle is strong enough that it necessitates these challenges must be met and conquered .

Cooper, you're confusing charity with welfare, and there is a very important difference, which makes ALL the difference.

With charity, people give VOLUNTARILY.....and so does the charity. They make judgment calls independently, not using a list of rules that's readily available for anyone to study and then "game." If a charity acts irresponsibly, people will stop donating to it, and it will collapse.

With welfare, people "give" through their taxes because they don't want to be put in prison or have their property taken away from them. When the welfare system acts irresponsibly, it doesn't go out of business. In fact, it GROWS, due to the perceived increased "need", and simply takes MORE money from the taxpayers.

You are also making the error of assuming that if government doesn't do certain things, they won't get done at all. There were fire brigades long before local governments stepped in, or even existed. There were roads long before there was a Department of Transportation. Do you go barefoot all the time? The government does not manufacture shoes.

If you think that MORE government involvement in health care will make things BETTER, I'd like to direct your attention to two industries, the automobile industry and the computer industry. The automobile industry is HEAVILY regulated by government. The computer industry is regulated very little, if at all. In which industry has product performance not only steadily improved, but improved geometrically every single year? In which industry have prices steadily FALLEN?

Don't buy the lie that without the crutch provided by Uncle Sam, you couldn't walk.........when he's the one who broke your leg in the first place.

+1 McCook

PwrRngr wrote:

One thing I hear is how bad the US life expectancy is. But this is very misleading. The US life expectancy also includes people killed in car accidents and homicides. Once you factor out those two things, the US is #1 in life expectancy. So basically, we're more likely to kill each other. Here's a good read for anyone that's actually interested in the issue. http://repository.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi...2&context=psc_working_papers

I didn't read that link (48 pages, holy crap), but did they also rule out car accidents and homicides for all the other countries, or just the US? They'd have to take that into consideration for every country or it'd skew the numbers.

Kindschi wrote:

pOrk wrote: I am not supporting your broke asses. I feel the same way, but more towards EBT, I think not only your income should be looked at, they need to evaluate the person as well. Look at there car and there cloths, and make them come in every 6 weeks for a drug test. Im tired of seeing these people buying name brand foods and loading them into there souped up cars while talking on there blue tooth thats linked to there brand new Iphone. Nothing ****'s me off more then food stamps and how the system is abused and no on seems to care. I gotta buy there groceries because they spent there money on updating there wardrobe then buying groceries. As for free healthcare, too many factors to really think it would work in the long run. But I pay for mine so I would not be affected by it.

First: their.

Second: You could look at the car/home a person owns, as that info would be in public records. But, what if they owned that stuff already, it's paid off, then they lost a job? You couldn't expect a family of, say, 5, to sell their house and move into a cheap-rent apartment so they can buy groceries for a couple of months until they get new employment. Their clothes and phone, there's no way to check that unless you're going to make home visits and dig through the closets, and that's not only a privacy violation, but would be incredibly expensive to do.

mccook8 wrote:

If you think that MORE government involvement in health care will make things BETTER, I'd like to direct your attention to two industries, the automobile industry and the computer industry. The automobile industry is HEAVILY regulated by government. The computer industry is regulated very little, if at all. In which industry has product performance not only steadily improved, but improved geometrically every single year? In which industry have prices steadily FALLEN?

I don't think that's a fair comparison. People interested in computers fall into one of two brackets: people that want it to just work and that will buy the cheapest thing possible, or people that want to be on the cutting edge. The first group drives prices down, the second demands performance increases. With vehicles, the average person wants the biggest, most powerful thing they can afford, gas mileage be dammed.


Also: Oz needs multi-quote!!